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submitted 1 year ago by NightOwl@lemm.ee to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml
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[-] Bnova@hexbear.net 31 points 1 year ago

I got into an argument with a guy on Reddit because he kept insisting that Taiwan was a sovereign nation and I kept telling him that Taiwan does not view Taiwan as a sovereign nation. At one point he asked me if we sold weapons to China and when I said definitionally yes he lost his shit.

[-] diablexical@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago

A June 2013 poll conducted by DPP showed an overwhelming 77.6% consider themselves as Taiwanese.[140] On the independence-unification issue, the survey found that 25.9 percent said they support unification, 59 percent support independence, and 10.3 percent prefer the "status quo." When asked whether Taiwan and China are parts of one country, the party said the survey found 78.4 percent disagree, while 15 percent agreed. As for whether Taiwan and China are two districts in one country, 70.6 percent disagree, while 22.8 percent agree

Taiwan #1

[-] honeynut@lemm.ee 29 points 1 year ago

The DPP (pro-Independence party) polling seems to differ a bit from National Chengchi University's yearly poll where "maintain status quo indefinitely/decide later" were the two most popular selections.

[-] richietozier4@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago

maintain status quo indefinitely/decide later

me deciding what I'm going to do today

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[-] diablexical@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

I agree the polling is a bit different, I don't think it contradicts the DPP study though. Setting aside the question of national identity (not addressed in the NCU study) vs national policy goals, NCU went 32/28/21 for status quo maintain/decide later/move toward independence. 1.6 wanted status quo + move toward unification. 21 > 1.6. Thanks for providing further evidence!

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[-] barrbaric@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago

70% of US adults believe in angels, but that doesn't make it true. No countries with any actual amount of power on the global stage recognize the ROC (see the US' One China Policy), which means that regardless of whatever views people claim to have when surveyed, Taiwan is de facto part of the PRC.

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[-] PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

You sorta have to win the war to declare independence.

Change the question to: “would you die for Taiwanese independence?” And watch the numbers drop.

[-] diablexical@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

You sorta have to win the war to declare independence.

So mainland China is not independent then?

[-] PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net 26 points 1 year ago

They have the mainland and everyone recognizes them as China.

Sounds independent to me. Forget your pedantic nonsense.

[-] diablexical@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

Sounds independent to me. Forget your pedantic nonsense.

As does Taiwan to me, and right back at you comrade.

[-] PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So the “nation” that doesn’t even consider itself independent sounds independent to you?

And I’m the one being pedantic?

Sorry to say but independence isn’t a vibe.

It’s not a vibe based analysis.

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[-] TheGamingLuddite@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

For context: the DPP is the pro-indpendence ultranationalist party founded by local landed elites who collaborated with the Japanese empire during wwii. To this day many Taiwanese ultranationalists around the DPP deny Japanese atrocities such as Nanjing and Unit 731. This may not be the most reliable source, three pinocchios!

[-] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

Anyone who says they support the DPP is openly saying they support fascists.

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[-] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

Interesting that you choose to present a 10 year old poll conducted by the pro-independence party instead of easily accessible recent polls conducted by well regarded Taiwanese universities.

I guess those other cherries just didn't look as ripe, eh?

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[-] randint@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Taiwan does not view itself as a soverign nation, but for most practical purposes it is one. Also, I don't think "definitionally" is a word.

Edit: Apparently "definitionally" is a word. I stand corrected.

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 27 points 1 year ago

Taiwan does not view itself as a soverign nation, but for most practical purposes it is one.

Being a sovereign nation is when you don't have a seat in the UN and most sovereign nations refuse to recognize you as an independent nation.

[-] GivingEuropeASpook@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago

Being a sovereign nation is when you don't have a seat in the UN and most sovereign nations refuse to recognize you as an independent nation.

I really don't think this is the view people on the left should hold. Someone could say the same thing about many nations or groups that don't have a seat in the UN and aren't recognised but are still supported by communists and anarchists.

[-] Blursty@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 year ago

What is a "sovereign nation"?

[-] Abraxiel@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

De facto, a polity that has a distinct administration which dictates policy within and maintains its own borders.

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[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago

Whether a nation or people is sovereign or not is a statement of reality, and part of sovereignty is whether other sovereign countries are able to vouch for your sovereignty. Just formally acknowledging your sovereignty like having an embassy is the bare minimum, but there's more like defense treaties, economic deals, and joining organizations. At the end of the day, there will be other countries and entities that will seek to challenge and destroy a country's sovereignty and unless you have a fleet of Gundams, you'll need other countries to rush to your defense when it's challenged. Nobody can do it alone.

If you're talking about cases like the ROC being in the UN instead of the PRC even though the PRC is de facto far larger than the ROC, remember that the UN isn't an immutable organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from denouncing the UN as a sham organization after getting kicked out and starting their own rival organization called the League of United Nations or something and getting other countries to cosign to this new organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from campaigning their allies (ie the West and various Western vassals) to leave the UN and join the LUN. But for obvious reasons, a LUN would never happen because the ROC doesn't have many allies. Most countries, including its so-called allies, see Taiwan as a US unsinkable aircraft carrier that'll inevitably be reunited with the Mainland, whether peacefully or by force, or be completely destroyed in the process of a US-China war.

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this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
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