cross-posted from: https://midwest.social/post/36729179
I got banded from ~~Hexbear~~ (I am dumb) a Hexbear community. Not that I am super sad about it. More confused...
This is the post that did me in: https://midwest.social/post/36684138/20435030
mod Removed Comment
Nothing will change if you don't believe it can. If all this does is delay fascism for a day. That's one less day of people dying and suffering for really stupid and avoidable reasons. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me bummed out and not vote? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Yes, I agree. This is simply a stop gap measure. I'm not saying to stop doing all the other stuff like protesting and organizing. Voting is just one afternoon. For some people it's really easy to do, it's way easier than other stuff that you're probably already doing. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
I thought roe v wade was gone because Obama did kick Mitch McConnell in the nutz for not doing his job and appointing his supreme Court judge. What did Biden do to row v wade? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Cuz I don't need to engage with your material. This is sooooooo simple. Just vote for the guy who is less fascist. Are you confused about whether fascism is bad? Guess what? It's bad! Lots of innocent people dying bad. Are you confused about which presidential candidate is the least fascist? That would be Biden. You should vote for him. Everyone should vote for him in this next election. This is your 100th chance to not come off as a fascist supporter. You better take it! by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Define failed practice? What do you think would have happened if Biden had lost the last election to Trump? Four years of Trump almost tore this country to pieces. I'm sorry fighting is hard. I'm not asking you to be pro-democrat. I'm just asking you not to doomer everyone into not voting at all. Guess what? Fascists vote and they organize and they don't get doomer about this stuff. If you're not going to help then get out of the way. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
First of all, you're confusing me with somebody who likes the Democrats. I don't. I don't like either party. Second of all, why the hell are you acting like there's a third choice between a Democrat and Republican? When was the last time an independent candidate came even close to winning? We currently only have two choices for president. I beg of you or anyone else that is reading this. Please vote for the less fascist one. Again, I don't like this. But acting like there's absolutely no difference between Biden and Trump is the the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
I know! So simple right? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Banned deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: west purginia, mountain mama (lib :farquaad-point:)
mod Removed Comment
If you have the numbers to start a violent revolution. You have the numbers to do reform. Unless you plan on dying a glorious death with no change in outcome. I'm not saying electoralism is the only answer. Keep protesting. Keep organizing. Keep spreading information. Do you know what would give you more time to build that revolutionary army? If Biden was president for four more years. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
I don't need to prove that Biden opposes fascism. I just have to prove the other candidate would be more fascist. We only have two choices. This should be really simple. Pick the one that's less fascist. Why is this so hard for you? Are you unsure which president would cause a less fascist outcome between Biden and Trump? This is really simple, it's Biden, vote Biden! Voting is one afternoon. Waiting in a line. Filling out a ballot. I know it sucks. Your feelings are valid. Vote Biden because fascism is bad. Do you know who's not going to vote Biden. All the fascists. They're going to be voting for whoever the Republican candidate is. Do you know who they really want? They want Hitler2 for president. Do you know what they're not doing? Complaining about that and doomering over it. This is incredibly simple. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Biden is better than a fascist. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me to give up start licking that boot? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Biden is better than a fascist. Seriously, what's the point of your comment? Are you trying to get me to give up start licking that boot? by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
You just want to shoot people. You want people to die due to fascism. So that you can LARP as a revolutionary soldier. Listen if a violent revolution was going to be successful. Liberal democracy would have turned the USA into socialism by now. If you're going to start a revolution, you have to make sure you have more than 50% of the population on your side, at a minimum. The more population on your side the less death will occur. If more than 50% of the population agrees with you, democracy will work just fine. No need to murder bone. Unless you want to. In which case none of this conversation makes any difference. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Yes, do all of that! And vote! Voting is pretty easy compared to the other things on that list. Do what you can. Do all of them if you can. I don't like the Democrats. I don't like saying that we should support the Democrats. But the Democrats are right now the least fascist of the two parties that we have to pick between. I am acting smug, because it appears to me this group has some whiny babies who can't vote. Seriously, how can you fight fascists in the street and then just not vote? I think voting would be really easy compared to fighting fascists. Convincing cucked liberals to vote for Biden is a nice baby step for them. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Removed Comment
Okay if you believe all that then shut up. Die quietly and let everyone else die fighting. All you're doing is spread doomer bullshit that isn't helping anyone. If you want to stop being miserable. Join the fight! by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: Wrecker.
mod Banned deaf_fish @lemm.ee from the community Labour
reason: Wrecker.
expires: 2 years ago
mod Removed Comment
Wow, this whole post is psy op. Vote Biden people! The only other option will be a fascist or fascist enabler. I don't like it anymore than you do. by deaf_fish @lemm.ee
reason: No.
The problem is that, on the left, the question of reformism vs revolution was settled centuries ago. Revolution is correct, and reformism has failed every single time, because moving onto socialism requires fubdamentally destroying the former state apparatus and replacing it with a socialist one. A capitalist state is designed specifically for capitalism, and as such trying to go the "lawful" route will go the same way as Allende, couped after 2 years of hard work and dedication.
In Hexbear, this constitutes wrecker behavior. By deliberately antagonizing the correct line and picking arguments that have already been fully settled and only affirmed more by history, you're doing little to add, only detract. You could have asked why the left rejects electoralism, but instead you chose to get into petty squabbles and were banned for it.
YDI.
Also electoralists are really obnoxious toxic shit heads since about 2016 and I think everybody is just about done with their fucking abusive bullshit; maybe even a little traumatized.
I genuinely am triggered by demshit electoralists. I'll try to hold my temper if someone starts talking about DSA whike we do stuff, but even talking about it here is making me (more) upset and literally the last thing I did was read a zionazi's bullshit.
Yep, one of the most common lines is the idea that it's "easier to organize under the DNC," as though either party treats leftists any better, and as though these same liberals are also joining leftist orgs and helping us either way. It's gaslighting more than anything.
Thanks for the explanation of wrecker.
As for the reformist versus revolution question. Your rhetoric indicates that it's a solved problem. I find that really hard to believe.
How was it solved? How can we be sure there isn't a set of material conditions that would allow for reformism to work?
I tried to give a brief overview, essentially a capitalist state cannot work against what it's been designed and evolved over time specifically to support as its foundation. That's the short answer, but if you want to actually see the developed arguments and refutations of the reformist position, I recommend reading Reform or Revolution? by Rosa Luxemburg, The State and Revolution by Lenin. Those both hold up, but what's more important is that they have been verified by historic experience. Allende tried to take the lawful route and was couped after 2 years by Pinochet. Bolivia is in crisis because of adhering to constitutionalism. The capitalist state must be replaced with a socialist one, you can't take power and try to mold it around socialism.
I'll have to check those out, but I am worried I won't find a satisfactory answer. Would you say it is as solid as Marx's take down of Capital?
They serve different purposes, but in general both are highly regarded.
Please don't. The bluemaga crowd have traumatized me about rlectoralism and I fucking can't deal with this shit.
Sorry. Even if it could work, wasnt counter revolutionary, and wasnt a tool to gaslight us into complicity in our own oppression, I'd still be hostile to it. At this point it's just triggering.
I get that.
I just want to know for myself. As time goes on it seems less likely we are in the set of material conditions that an incremental approach would get us out of this mess.
I'm also doing a lot of thinking and I don't know if what I am shooting for is electoralism. I mean it depends on getting into power and then breaking capitalism by any means. Even illegal means. So many I fall more under a peaceful revolution type. I need to think and read a bit more. I am not built for reading.
The problem is that, on the left, the question of state vs anarchy was settled centuries ago. Anarchy is correct, and statism has failed every single time, because moving on from statism requires fubdamentally destroying the former state apparatus and replacing it with another state apparatus. A state is designed specifically for statism, and as such trying to go the “statist” route will go the same way as the USSR, authoritarian and oppressive before even 2 years of hard work and dedication.
In Spain, right? Franco was an anarchist?
This comment doesn't really serve a purpose other than to pick a fight that didn't need to be. We both agree about reformism vs revolution, or we should agree, even if you disagree about the revolution itself. States aren't their own independent things, the basis of the state lies in class struggle, ergo the way to erase the basis of the state is to erase the basis of class. This means collectivizing production.
The USSR was authoritarian towards monarchists, fascists, and capitalists, yes, but was very liberating for the working class. Further, no country today exists in similar conditions to 1917 Russia, so no, no socialist country will go the same way as the USSR. It would be an equally flawed argument for me to say that any anarchist project will go the same way as the Spanish anarchists, and just as invalid as the argument you're trying to make.
This is just an example of being a wrecker.
as long as the working class you're talking about wasn't queer. lgbt+ people were just thrown in the gulag and labeled "fascists".
The USSR was more progressive than Tsarist Russia when it comes to views on homosexuality and gender, and was more progressive than the west was at the time. The USSR was far behind, say, modern Cuba with its phenomenal family code, but was more progressive than, say, the UK or US. Alexandra Kollontai, one of the founding Bolsheviks, was an outwardly bisexual woman, and feminism and racial justice were far more advanced than the west at the time.
If we look at what life was like for the queer working class, it's undeniable that life was far worse under the Tsar. Not only was homosexuality strictly punished under the Tsar, but you also had to deal with the working standards of emerging capitalism in an underdeveloped feudal backwater. The advent of socialism brought with it immense social progression, and while views on homosexuality were left behind, for the most part, in some areas of the USSR that wheel began to make immense progress before the west.
In the GDR, for example, they learned the proper lesson and began providing state-sponsored gender affirming care, and decriminalized homosexuality. Cuba, which wasn't in the USSR but is Marxist-Leninist, had an immense progression in social values, leading to the adoption of their modern family code. Vietnam is beginning to follow in their footsteps, and though behind Vietnam, China is also slowly advancing in this regard.
The treatment of queer folk in the USSR was horribly unjust, yes. I'm not denying that truth, that's one of the faults of previous socialism. However, it was socialism that also brought immense social progress, and has allowed countries like Cuba to surpass the vast majority of western countries. Views on sexuality and gender were more advanced than their contemporaries, and it's of little doubt that this progress would have continued had the USSR not dissolved into horrendous capitalism. The dissolution of socialism brought immense social backlash with it, setting that clock of progress backward.
This is just an example of misinformation.
It isn't, though. From the feudal backwater that was Tsarist Russia, where the life expectancy was in the 30s, the working class was regularly murdered by Tsarist assassins and thugs. People lived in immense poverty, while the Tsar lived with some of the finest luxuries in the world.
After the revolution, life expectancy grew to double what it had been, wealth inequality plummeted, economic growth massively expanded. Working hours were cut while wages rose. Housing was free or extremely inexpensive, healthcare and education were free and high quality, and production itself was democratized. Women's rights were massively expanded, including many top bolsheviks being women in a time where that was unheard of.
Socialism in Eastern Europe was imperfect. Nothing that really exists can measure up to lofty ideals. However, it is beyond a shadow of a doubt true that socialism brought the Russian working class immense victories. This success has been repeated around the world, such as in China, Cuba, Vietnam, and more, unless you genuinely think Tsarism, semi-feudalism, fascist slavery, colonialism, and other brutal existences were somehow better for the working class than socialism.
lmao you should see the wopper they posted two hours later that got them banned
https://hexbear.net/post/6395599
Incredible, seems to happen every time.
Yeah but bluemaga electoralists are way more annoying than tankies. Worst a tankie us gonna do is then the revolution into reactionary bullshit stab me in the back and bury me in a shallow grave; they won't be a gaslighting dick about it and blame me every time rhey stub their toe or someone cuts them off in traffic.
I don't think electoralism means what you think it means.
Could you elaborate?
I'd rather not :) have a good day.
Fair enough, you too.