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this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2025
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Without getting into discussion about how right or wrong they are those people are primarily worried about the identity of their country. They believe that sustaining the population growth by letting in big numbers of foreigners will destroy their culture. They prefer to suffer the consequences of population crisis than live in a country with different values and traditions. Is it supremacy? Sure it is. But it's also logical.
Logical if you believe your race/identity are superior to others, which is an illogical starting premise and the root of why conservatives are always on the wrong side of history.
Doesn't have to the superior, but one of personal preference. You like the current cultural values and know other cultures don't necessarily share them and so fear a cultural shift.
In this case though I think you're right that there's a strong superiority aspect.
What's illogical about it? How can you even apply logic to personal values and opinions?
Recognize that it is an opinion that some people may disagree with, not a fact that everyone has to accept, and act accordingly. In this case, that means not using the force of government to persecute people who disagree with your opinion.
You're still talking about how they are wrong but not how they are illogical. You can still apply logic to lies. It doesn't make them true but it also doesn't make it illogical.
No, I'm not. I am starting from the premise that there is an objective reality we all have to deal with and that different individuals have different subjective preferences, and everything else logically flows from there.
If you're looking for a utilitarian reason to behave the way I am suggesting, I would say that when you start taking tangible objective actions against everyone who doesn't agree with your particular subjective preferences you will give people with a variety of different subjective preferences something in common (i.e. that they are being oppressed by you) and that will eventually make them work together to stop you. On a long enough timeline, tyranny is always a losing strategy.
That's just something you made up. Logic doesn't start from objective reality and preferences. It's just a tool.
If A then B. If B then C. Therefore if A then C.
I don't have to know what A, B and C are in some objective reality for this rule to be true. I can see you struggle to understand that logic is abstract and separate it from facts you want to apply it to but that's just what logic is. You're basically confusing logic with truth. To decide what is true you have to start with some objective reality and apply logic to it but you can apply logic to anything. You can apply it correctly to Harry Potter or to invalid facts. You will not reach truth but you're reasoning can still be logical.
A is something you just made up
Exactly! You got it now.
In what world is "I rather die in squalor and let the entire country suffer than see people that look different than me on the street, eat some food I don't recognize", logical?
It is only logical if you're... well, a supremacist.
I mean, it requires a mental framework of how culture and identity work that is fundamentally supremacist.
Culture works by aggregation, it's entirely unrelated to borders and it is in perpetual shift. This assumption requires misunderstanding culture from a very specific perspective.
So no, not logical.
Internally consistent, yes: make women into reproductive vessels and men into the defenders of a fossilized culture enforced through violence. That's a consistent worldview.
But not a logical one if you apply it to reality. The difference matters.
It matters if we're arguing who's right. If you just want to understand their mental jump it doesn't. Of course those people are ignorant, misinformed or have ulterior motives but their believes are often logical. It's like not vaccinating your kids because you believe vaccines are more dangerous than the disease. Or course it's wrong but if you really believe it, being anti-vax is logical. Where it stops being logical is in the MAGA movement. They want to drain the swamp by voting for a criminal and want to fight pedophiles by electing one. It's just a cult, there's no logic there. The far right movements in Europe/Japan are build on misinformation but still need to invent logical arguments.
Sure, but that's taking the concept of what's "logical" to absurd extremes. Any sort of paranoid delusion is logical if you accept all of its premises.
Is being antivax logical? Not at all. It requires amazing mental gymnastics to ignore centuries of scientific research. Things that are "logical if you believe them" is a great way to describe things that aren't logical. Vaccines do not, in fact, by all available measures, cause more dangerous issues than the diseases they prevent. If your "logic" requires a rejection of the entire epistemological framework upon which shared scientific kknowledge is established it's not "logic", kind of by definition.
This is the same thing. Its internal consistency isn't "logic". It can be shown to not be logical. If you suspend yourself from that conversation, deny the parameters of anybody who disagrees with you and cherry pick your values to specifically support your instinctively desired conclusion, then it doesn't matter how well you can through your train of thought, it's still indefensible.
I think that's why the MAGA thing stumps you a bit. Their train of thought isn't any better or worse than this. It's, in fact, identical. Information that supports it gets magnified, information that disrupts it is ignored. They are fun about it in that they add this cool temporal dimension, where that selection is applied regardless of how it was applied before, so they're all for free speech when people tell them to shut up, all for limiting speech when people criticise them. But that's not different to the fundamental contradiction of being concerned about a population crisis when you are trying to turn women into walking incubators but concerned about the massive influx of people when you're trying to be racist.
It's a lot of things, but it's not logic.
No, it's just what logic is. Anti-vaxer doesn't have to know the science. Not knowing something doesn't mean my reasoning lacks logic. I can invent some facts and then apply logic to them. Logic doesn't have to operate on true statements. "All unicorns are pink and all pink animals eat clouds hence all unicorns eat clouds".
Many cultures adapt for the better / become more humanist with open migration. Think of it as enhancing your identity (which is likely just mid at best in its current form if we're being real)
I think you missed the part where I'm not saying immigration is bad. I'm just explaining how people who oppose immigration think.
Sorry but in the case of Japan, it's definitely not logical. At best, they have an argument against over-tourism. But the Sanseito party acts like foreigners moving to Japan are creating a spike in crime. They literally have young women weeping through a megaphone on the street, crying that foreigners are rapists. But that's simply not backed up by statistics. Crime per capita has not increased, and the demographic committing the most serious crimes in Japan is predominantly native Japanese.
Looks at pile of dead cultures in textbook.... No, that's not logical. That's Jingoist dumbassery.
Like, if you start with the premise that they are right and you are wrong I guess it would be illogical to disagree with them, but that's just a completely meaningless argument that doesn't tell us anything too interesting about abstract reasoning nor does it have any substantive connection to factual reality that I can see