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this post was submitted on 30 Aug 2023
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You know what? It doesn't fucking matter what Meadows knew or didn't know. The operation of elections for federal offices are handled by the states.
US Constitution, Article II, Section 1, Clause 2:
The choosing of Electors is an authority of the States, and specifically not the federal government. The very moment that Raffensperger call drifted into the federal executive branch putting its fingers into state authority, Meadows should have left that call.
And don't fucking tell me that Meadows had no idea what that call was to be about before it took place, even if he wasn't directly informed. "Trump is contesting election results all over the place, and now he wants to talk to the Georgia Secretary of State" is plenty of information - which Meadows was in possession of at the time - to indicate that arranging and participating in this call was not "in the course of his duty as White House Chief of Staff." And he did it anyway.
Edit: Ooo I just noticed something: "[N]o Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector." As I recall, at least one of the indicted people in Georgia, who was a fake elector, was also a Georgia state Senator. And that guy is one of the people trying to argue that his case should be removed to federal court, because he was "acting as a federal officer" due to his "elector" status. He's disqualified from being an Elector by A2 S1 C2, unless "United States" above refers to federal officers. I don't have enough background there to know how "United States" is interpreted without a bunch more research (which someone should definitely do).
Trump is still new at this; he's a political outsider! That means you don't have to know the law or abide by it.
And here I was always told that "ignorance of the law is no excuse."
I don't think anyone's mens rea matters. It doesn't matter what Trump or anyone else says they "believed" about election fraud. There are legal ways to explore and address election fraud, and that is through the courts. Trump and his gang sought relief through the courts, 62 times, and the courts all said, "Nope, you got nothing."
It doesn't matter what anyone believed; it doesn't suddenly become legal to explore and address election fraud in illegal ways.
Well, that's just something people say that is often misunderstood. "You don't have to know the exact statute to fulfill the elements of a described criminal act" is more appropriate.
It absolutely matters. But again, you can "with corrupt intent" do something that violates the law without actively thinking "I mean to do this in a corrupt way." Similarly, you can "with the intent to permanently deprive" take a car that doesn't belong to you without actively thinking "I mean that this person should never see their car again. Mens rea has a lot more nuance than you propose, and if it didn't, almost nobody would be convicted of anything.
I should have been clearer: I don't think anyone's mens rea matters with regard to federal officials taking actions outside of state courts to affect the outcome of a federal election.
States are responsible and authoritative with regards to elections for the office of President of the United States. The legal course to challenge election results in a state is through state courts in that state. There is no provision whereby federal officers, up to and including POTUS, are allowed to directly petition (and, in this case, arguably strongarm and threaten) the Secretary of State for the state in which they want to challenge election results.
Is it legal for the executive branch to take non-state court actions to effect the outcome of a presidential election in that state? If not (and it would seem that that is not legal, based on the Constitution clearly giving federal election authority to the States), then intent or state of mind is not relevant. The action itself is illegal.
Edit: And if mens rea is necessary, then it can be demonstrated through "acting purposely" or "acting negligently," I would think. Acting purposely, because the conscious intent was to effect the outcome of a state election without the authority to do so. Acting negligently for failing to meet a reasonable standard of behavior for their circumstances, because it is not reasonable for a federal office holder to believe they have the authority to interfere in state elections.
Can we get you onto the Justice Department prosecution team immediately? I REALLY want to see someone on the stand asked, “What exactly was Mr. Meadows’s role in the presidential election process? And given that, how constitutional were his actions, on a scale of 1-10?”
Not a lawyer (although a few people in my personal life have suggested I should have been one), just a reasonable person, so I don't qualify for the participation you suggest.
I have to think that a federal prosecution team has some reason for wanting to demonstrate mens rea, at the very least to make the case stronger. But I don't personally see any rationale for it being required to prove guilt, and I think that my reasoning for mens rea not being required is sound. I am more than happy to have anyone with an actual legal background point out any errors I make.
IANAL, but that sounds right.