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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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politics
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— Biggs’ lawyer, Norm Pattis
got it! gonna find the nearest crowded movie theatre and yell "FIRE!" at the top of my lungs. thanks, norm!
In general, a conspiracy charge can't be sustained on speech alone; even speech wherein two or more people agree to commit a crime. It additionally requires some overt material act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
If Alice, Bob, and Carla get together and make a plan to break Dan's window and steal his fancy new TV, that's just talk. But if Alice then goes to the hardware store and buys a window-smashing hammer, now all three can be convicted for conspiracy to commit burglary.
In this case, Biggs' overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy included actually breaking down fences to get at Congress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_conspiracy
indeed. this is why the speech itself must be considered as part of the conspiracy. the comment by his lawyer seems to take the entire act and reframe it around the speech, when its clear the speech and the act are, essentially, one in this case.
edit: errant full stop
Yeah, the latest conservative tactic for pardoning criminality seems to be generalizing the acts into meaninglessness then pretending that generalized act is what's being prosecuted. This case very clearly fits the definition of a criminal conspiracy but they're trying to convince the base that the DoJ is ready to prosecute all conservatives for wrongthink.
So is conspiring to overthrow the govt, so…..
He didn't threaten to do it, he did it
Conspiracy, by definition, is talking about commiting a crime, and then doing an action to actually commit the crime.
So let's say I get some friends together and we talk about pulling a heist on the local art museum. That in and of itself is not a crime, we are just talking. But if we start going out and casing the joint, buying crow bars and shit to actually do it, it becomes a conspiracy to commit burglary, which is a crime. Even though we didn't actually break into the place yet, it becomes a crime when we make actions toward the crime.
Dude made statements about overthrowing the government. Not a crime. But then he went to the government and started jumping fences, and breaking into buildings. Crime.
Also, by your logic yelling fire wouldn't be illegal, it's literally speech. Also threatening is a crime. If I say, I'm gonna hit you with this hammer, and I have a hammer in my hand, that is assault, which is totally a crime. Didn't actually hit you, just threatened to but with the clear ability to go through with that threat.
Yes, it is.
Edited for formatting and to remove needless snark.
Good Lord you are dense. People have already clearly explained why it is in fact a crime, complete with ELI5 examples.
If you don't get it, that's on you. The dude is going to prison where he belongs.
You seem like somebody who is destined to end up just like this guy with wild ideas like "threatening without an action isn't a crime", so keep at it.
That's not true at all. It is illegal in many places to make threats or intimidate people. See here: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Criminal-Threats.htm
It actually isn't.
It's not as cut and dry as that-
“The falsely shouted warning, while technically speech, could potentially violate a state's criminal laws against disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct, whether or not it provokes a stampede, for instance."
-Nashwa Gewaily, a media and First Amendment lawyer
Speech alone isn't, this guy did more than speak.
so is a conspiracy, incitement, etc... we are talking about the freedom of speech vs freedom of concequence from that speech. that is what I take issue with. inciting panic in closed confines has immediate consequences - this is clear and therefore typically prohibited.
political speech fomenting real-world violence (or panic) should result in the same level of legal consequence when action is taken based on that speech. imho, you can not separate the speech from the act once the act has taken place.
your point is well taken - speech must be protected.
but my illustration is indended to be as outlandish as I believe the lawyer's statement was. once there is an overt act, the speech is no longer separate and protected. his statement appears to try and separate the two. separating speech from the resulting act (and therefore consequences) seems to be the current playbook and it infuriates me.
I hope we are not talking past each others here as I believe I understand your point, but my comment was to illustrate the silliness of the statement by Biggs's lawyer.
edit: context