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submitted 1 year ago by FuckyWucky@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

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[-] sanpedropeddler@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

With no actual evidence, it just seems like China's word against the US's. Neither are sources I trust, and both have motives to lie. I'm just going to assume nothing.

[-] PosadistInevitablity@hexbear.net 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Can you possibly explain why the western diplomats stationed there told their home countries nothing happened in diplomatic cables?

Why would they do that if it was real?

[-] YuccaMan@hexbear.net 40 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I said there was no evidence that a massacre took place in Tiananmen Square. What actually took place there is well evidenced by eyewitness testimony, a fair bit of which is contained in the two sources I linked.

Edit: I also take issue with the assertion that both the US and China are equally untrustworthy, particularly when the Chinese government freely admits that violent clashes between civilians and PLA personnel took place that day, something they would certainly have incentive to lie about if they were as untrustworthy as all that.

[-] sanpedropeddler@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

I recall seeing eyewitness testimony supporting both sides. Although, its possible the testimonies I saw were about the clashes that China admits to, and were simply framed as being about a massacre. They didn't seem very specific or definitive.

Even though the Chinese government admits to those violent clashes, its still very plausible they would lie about a massacre. Its much easier to justify that than it would be an actual massacre, especially when the civilians act violently. Its also possible that admitting some aspect of it would benefit them more than complete denial.

[-] YuccaMan@hexbear.net 39 points 1 year ago

You'd have a point there, if there wasn't ample photographic evidence which also suggests that no concerted massacre took place, in the square or elsewhere. All available photographic evidence that I've seen supports the Chinese government's version of events: scattered street clashes which unfortunately featured some quite heavy duty violence, but no mass formation of tanks coming in and deliberately schwacking everybody in sight.

[-] sanpedropeddler@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

You make convincing arguments, and I'm sure you are correct to some degree. I do not believe that the dramatized events suggested by the west are accurate. But, I still think it was a disgusting waste of life that could potentially be described as a massacre.

[-] YuccaMan@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

It wasn't nice, to be sure. The workers' protests which happened concurrently with the events of Tiananmen Square were reportedly the source of much of the violence, and it got properly nasty at times. The two events are often conflated though, and I felt it important to draw that distinction. Anyhow, I appreciate your open-mindedness.

[-] spectre@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago

If you want to find it more, I often recommend the documentary "the gate of heavenly Peace" which you can find on YouTube. If you want to understand a bit of it's perspective before watching check the reception/controversy section on its Wikipedia page

[-] BurgerPunk@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago

I don't trust anyone, so i will believe the US

[-] sanpedropeddler@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 year ago

That is not what I said

[-] BurgerPunk@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm sorry, you're actually being reasonable and in good faith. Some other people in your instance have shortened my fuse a bit when i see the @shitjustworks, and you didn't deserve that. I'm going to reign it in, and i apologize again.

Thanks for genuiniely engaging with other people from hexbear on these issues