Apologies for posting.
I should say by way of introductory remarks, that while this is an effort post, it is an effort post on a shitposting website, and thus ab initio a shitpost and therefore be taken in the correct spirit of levity in which it is intended. Don't get my thread locked.
Recent discussion on here has touched on the moral status of the execution of the Romanov family by Bolsheviks ahead of the advancing White Army^1^. While not exactly of practical significance given how few of us have Royal Families locked up in our basement, it did reveal several significant, (sometimes severe) differences in the philosophical underpinnings of the posters on this website.
A Moral Communism
Moral status as such actually has very little to deal with communism/leftist (in the Marxian vein) in terms of it's internal mechanism. Marx, Engels, Lenin, and the rest of that intellectual lineage^2.^ famously thought very little of moral philosophy. A communist is thus entirely at liberty to dismiss this entire discussion as idealism, and observe that within a Marxist framework, there are no 'good' and 'bad', merely a historically deterministic sequence of class antagonisms that will eventually resolve in favor of the proletariat and thus choosing to be a communist is merely choosing to throw one's hat in with the predetermined victors. This strand of amoral communism thus is not terribly interested in this discussion, and anyone here that adheres to that framework is excused from the discussion as having won the argument.
Given the rest of us do have moral considerations that prefigure our political beliefs, it's necessary for us to sketch out at least a scaffolding for what moral commonalities leftists share before going further, lest we fall into a morass of fundamentally incompatible frameworks stemming from different axiomatic premises. Speaking from my own personal position, I ascribe to leftist political positions as they offer me the greatest promise of granting a comfortable and dignified existence to the largest number of people possible. That in of itself does not make a moral axiom though, as achieving a large amount of something is valueless if the individual components don't themselves have value, and therefore, and a fundamental value informing my politics is the axiomatic value/sanctity of human life. So I am taking on as an assumption that generally speaking, want everyone to have dignified and comfortable lives^3.^ If that position doesn't more or less describe you, you are also excused as having won the argument.
Justifying Shooting a Tsesarevich in my Pajamas
Which brings us to the Romanovs. In keeping with ^3.^ above, and considering the minor children of royals not culpable for the systematic injustices perpetrated under the dictatorship of their parents, we'll limit our discussion here to the minors (Anastasia, and especially Alexei), though I think the general outline of the argument can be applied to pretty much all of the Tsar's issue. The entirety of the family, along with their retinue, were bulleted and bayoneted in Yekaterinburg about 10 days before white occupied the city. In attempting to defend the legacy of one of the most politically successful socialist projects in history^4.^, this action has largely been justified on the left. Examining the commonly proposed justifications in light of our moral principles finds them universally lacking.
- It was necessary in order to safeguard the immediate success of the revolution against an individual with claim to the throne.
This argument goes that while we do value human life and dignity, our efforts to maximize these will sometimes require that certain human lives be forfeit, essentially turning this into a trolley problem^5.^. This argument differs in an important aspect from the trolley problem in that the trolley problem consists of single moment in time with clearly articulable and certain outcomes given at the outset. Leaving Alexei alive was in no way certain to doom the revolution to failure of significant struggle, as he could have been maintained in custody, and ascribing such outsized influence on the course of political affairs to the life of a sickly 13 year old is a profoundly anti-materialist approach to history. History is replete with challenges to establish socialist authority^6.^, none of which stemmed from claimants to the Imperial thrown. Further, liquidating the Tsar, his children, and his brother did not exhaust the Romanov line, his cousin could and did proclaim himself Emperor-in-exile, and despite being old enough to actually head a restorationist intervention, none materialized. So the notion that killing Alexei was necessary fails to stand up to scrutiny ^7.^. It is also worth noting as an aside that the Romanovs were deeply unpopular, and to wit, were not the government the Bolshevik revolution occurred under, and supporters of the provisional government (domestic and international alike) formed the overwhelming contingent of the White forces, and the notion that a 14 year old tsarist claimant to the thrown would have had a meaningful impact on that colossal clusterfuck strains credulity.
- It prevented a longterm challenge to Boshevik control in a manner similar to Jacobite uprisings or the Bourbon Restoration.
Taking a more longterm view of the problem, it might be acknowledged that the Alexei presented no immediate threat justifying his liquidation, but, drawing from the history of pre-CIA regime changes, he presented a longterm likely/probable/plausible/possible threat in the form of an eventual challenge, and that acting in light of that possibility was justified if not strictly necessary. If we wish to examine this in light of our moral principles, we need to develop some notion of probability calculus; at what point is taking in innocent life now justified in order to avoid certain possible harms that have a certain probability of occurring. You can formalize this to ridiculous extents^8.^, or you can take the legal systems more qualitative approach, of establish some standard of proof (you are, after all, justifying killing someone), where the execution is deemed justified if seems more likely than not/clearly and convincingly/beyond a reasonable doubt that it will prevent further, greater harm in the future. This lets you weaken the requirement that it is necessary to kill him to merely it is prudent to kill him. What is lacking though is any evidence that anyone has meaningfully carried out this process for any standard beyond plausible. The greatest extent to which this is established is that historically, there have been several restorationist insurrections, but no systematized historical study has been undertaken to quantify the risk of insurrection/coup in the presence or absence of an legitimate claimant.^9^.
Well perhaps we leave it there; a plausible narrative that places Alexei as the cause of some harm is sufficient in our eyes to justify his liquidation. The problem with this is that it is such a liberal standard that it can be applied to nearly everyone. There are scores of documented peasant rebellions throughout history, so by the same standard it is plausible that any given peasant may be at risk for launching a peasant rebellion down the line and thus, by that same standard, we are justified in liquidating them. Universalizing from this generic peasant^.10. to all peasants. And thus our system named aimed an providing dignity and comfort is able to justify pretty much any atrocity.
- The moral culpability of for the executions lies at the feet of the Tsar who created the system and not the executioners themselves.
This argument goes that it was actually the Tsar that placed him in position to be killed by standing at the top of a monarchical system that has ruined and ended untold numbers of lives. Had the Tsar dismantled that system before it came to blows, Alexei would have lived a happily inbred life as a continental European curiosity.
This argument plays fast an lose with the notion of fault to an extent that borders on the absurd. Within getting into the morass that encompasses the legal notion of fault, I'll observe that the executioners where in total control of the situation, given the Romanovs were in the zone of immediate material influence, while the Bolshevik leaderships were at a more distant proximity, and Tsar Nicholas II at the head of the Imperial State was a fleeting memory, having greatly influenced the events that now overtook them, but having no control over them. The Bolshevik's in Ipatiev House or those in leadership in Moscow alone decided who in that house lived and died, they knew that, and they exercised that choice.
- Unpleasant things happen during a revolution and we accept that as soon as they begin.
This is true, but once again, it comes down to the notions of control and proximity. As a leftist, I acknowledge that the struggle for political power may involve the world becoming a worse place (as judged according to my moral principles outline above) due to my actions to make it a better one. This is an abstract acknowledgement. It may also result in me taking actions that I find unpleasant or repugnant^11^. If it is the moral principles that describe motivate my political struggle though, it is fundamentally self-defeating to exercise my control over my immediate surroundings to knowingly act in a manner that results in an immediate degradation of the world around me (once again, as judged by my moral standards). My actions in the here and now, must be justified according to my principles in the here and now and my actions in the here and now. If 10 minutes ago I was standing in Yekaterinburg and the Whites are closing in, and now I'm still standing in Yekaterinburg and the Whites are still closing in, but now there is a brand new pile of child corpses of my making, then I have made the world a worse place.
No tears for dead peasants
It is reasonable to ask why go to such great lengths to challenge the justifications for the murder of Alexei (which is so emotionally remote to me as to essentially be fictitious). To which I offer the following justifications.
- It's ridiculous and therefore funny.
- Because eventually some of us may be in positions to make decisions that make the world a substantially better or worse place for others, and I want it be very clear what stands before us when making those decisions. No, none of us are going to decide whether or not an heir lives or dies, but we are going to decide how to treat with those around us, and want everyone to pause before they exercise what little control they have in the world around them before making it a worse place, justifying it with a glib aphorism or some half-baked argument.
^1.^ The fitness for humor here is not considered, as something can be both morally bad and the legitimate target of well-done comedy. Like 9/11.
^2.^ I was promised ice cream if I didn't say 'ilk' here.
^3.^ To wit, one of the main justifications for political violence on the left is that it is directed at those preventing others from enjoying dignity, comfort, or well, life.
^4.^ Such as it is.
^5.^ which we may dub the Yekaterinburg Streetcar Defense
^6.^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rebellions_in_the_Soviet_Union
^7.^ One could alternatively take the logical form of necessity as a conditional, ~P -> ~Q with P being "the legitimate claimant to the imperial thrown is killed" and "Q" being "the revolution is successful". Given the contra-factual nature of ~P, the truth value of this statement can't be evaluated directly, but given the analogous situation in China with PuYi, we can strongly infer that this conditional is in fact false and thus logical necessity is not present.
^8.^ define x~i~ to be each enumerated possible future in space X, p(x~i~) to be the probability of that future occurring, and h(x~i~) to be the number of lives ruined by Alexei in that future x~i~. Shoot kid if
^9.^ To reach a preponderance of evidence standard you would need to establish P(Insurrection|Legitimate Claimant) > P(Insurrection), which the strictly materialist interpretation would hold P(Insurrection|Legitimate Claimant) = P(Insurrection).
^10^ Regular viewers will recognize this as universal generalization.
^11^ Orwell's description of the conditions of fighting in the Spanish civil war come to mind.
If "eating food" is good in general, then eating this particular rotten dish must be good as well, through the most basic logic of universal instantation.
That was not the question I asked you. Answering that question honestly also shows the fault of your "universal instantation" simplifying a complex question.
They did, it's been gone over in this thread and the previous one several times.
They did, as has been gone over in this thread and the previous one several times. The fact that you disagree with the conclusion does not mean there was not a rational foundation.
You should probably do that instead of litigating a debate about the validity of killing a royal heir 100 years ago then.
You're presenting the same argument as you did then, and it's focused on the same subject.
It's a legal argument arguing the case of how a person that is - according to the law - above the law, still able to be persecuted by the law. You wanted due process, courts, that stuff. That's what you got in that argument. In fact you've requested morality and Robespierre is presenting such a one. It seems like you just don't like the thought of killing royals
@a_blanqui_slate@hexbear.net is using universal instantiation in the mathematical sense, where a single counter example invalidates the statement. so either food isn't good as it's possible to construct as a counter example, as you've done, or the definition of food needs to be adjusted.
I'm not saying it's a good idea to apply mathematical formalism to politics, just explaining what's meant in this context. (i.e. it's possible to argue that "killing kids is bad" isn't a universal proposition precisely because of counter-examples like the Romanov kids.)
Thanks for the clarification, I was not aware that it was a mathematical term, however I was aware of what the argument was doing. I chose to use food as a counter-example to show how it's not really something you can do to a discussion of morality or other complexities.
yep, that's why edited to make it clear that it's sound to argue that it's not a universal proposition on the grounds that the Romanov kids are a counter-example.
Didn't see your message pre edit I think, I think I might be misunderstanding you, sorry if so. Thanks for the clarification anyway!
Seems like you need to develop a more robust moral axiom then and not pretend you hold ones that you don't actually hold.
No, you all have been more or less trying to do the Bolshevik's homework for them. No one has pointed to the rationalization provided by the Boleshevkis (a letter, a statement, a coded telegram, meeting minutes) in which they do their homework.
You're the one simplifying complex questions by insisting that all we can know about the circumstances is that they are child soldiers. Any real situation is going to involve specifics, and the answer, based on my universal moral principles, will change based on those specifics.
I very much am not. In that thread I took the hardline stance, which I hold personally, that killing anyone is who cannot be reasonably inferred to pose a imminent and proximal threat to the life of others. In this post, I allow that killing the Tsar could be morally justified, in keeping with footnote 3, on the basis of previous crimes, which I consider a more mainline ethical position among leftists. I would argue personally that the killing of Louis XVI could not be justified with any amount of words at the time of his execution, but that is not the argument I am making here, because it requires premises that I consider relatively uncommon among leftists and so it would be a waste of time owing to incommiserable frameworks.
If you'd read the thread (it's long, I know) before commenting you'd see me doing that everywhere, as well as incidentally showing that the 'likelihood of future threat' based arguments that you and everyone else made fall apart under any scrutiny longer than 10 minutes. One of the few other commenters to flesh out that position most fully has already changed their mind about the justification of the killing.
It specifically denies within it's text that it is any of those things. It's arguing that the revolution was the due process afforded to the king, and now that they as safeguards to the revolution have the right to do whatever they think is appropriate, without argument or defense from the other side, in order to safeguard the new republic. Saying "we don't need a trial, the revolution was the trial" is just making shit up.
Wasn't doing a moral argument, was highlighting the ridiculousness in your logic.
No, you just keep dismissing things as not sufficient, and fail to engage when it challenges you too much to dismiss it.
I'm not simplifying anything and I'm not insisting the Romanovs are child soldiers - They weren't. Answer the question.
You're making the same argument as you did then. Killing the Romanovs was an unforgivable crime done for no reason at all, no rationality at all, and if we do anything but critize it we think child killing is cool and good.
I did read the thread before I commented, thank you for assuming good faith. I see you arguing for why killing the Romanovs was a bad thing that cannot in any way be understood as reasonable or practical or anything other than just evil and bad. I don't see you do much of anything else, though when you're pressured a bit too much you claim you're not actually talking about the Romanovs.
Do you not know the context of the speech? It was a trial. It's saying the trial shouldn't be necessary, the trial that they are holding that trial. You also mention the Terror elsewhere, which shows to me you know barely anything about the subject you speak so confidently of.
Link me right now in this thread to any statement , telegraph, meeting minute or any other documentation that shows the justification of the bolsheviks in the words of the bolsheviks. Do that or acknowledge that the rationale of the bolsheviks has not in fact been provided before we can move on.
Are you saying you want internal documents from the bolsheviks about the execution or are you saying you want an explanation for why they at the time might be thinking it was prudent action? I don't know of their internal communication for the first, and for the second gestures at all the people having answered your many silly demands thru this thread.
Also we can't move on until you answer my question.
That would be evidence that they had done their homework, yes. It's not like we don't have some internal documents including the telegram announcing the deed to Lenin. Could be a public statement though, I'm not picky. I want evidence that they in fact develop the rational foundation for killing the kid.
I don't need that. I know why they might have thought it was a prudent action, I'm saying there's no evidence they thought particularly hard about it, because all of those maybe reasons to me fall under any sort of scrutiny. But in any case, you don't get to shoot kids first and ask questions later and then act like it was justified at the time. If we want to provide safeguards on the killing of kids (or any other action with obvious and immediate bad effects), the consideration and justification must come first, which you seem to acknowledge there is no evidence of in this case.
Only 2 or 3 people have gotten anywhere near this standard and even those were incomplete, and of those one has already changed their mind.
The question whether or not 'it is moral to kill child soldiers' is true? From my own personal moral calculus, that statement is not truth-bearing. The application of my moral axioms does not supply a ready made answer until more about the situation is known.
Okay, I don't have access to that. Are you saying this whole post is actually a historical debate? You must be if what you actually want is analysis of documents of an event that happened 100+ years ago.
Wow I've never seen any one turn the word "no" into an opportunity to soapbox before. Is there anything else you'd like to repeat for the fifth time despite it not being relevant for the question you're answering?
Lmao, allright. Must be nice to have a discussion centered around your personal opinion, so you can arbitrarily decide what is and isn't valid. "The only people that did it were the people that agreed with me".
Ah my bad! I thought we were having a discussion in good faith, yet what I see is that you in fact just want a
pedantic debate where we pretend not to understand what the other is communicating unless they use perfect language. I'm not really interested in that though. I'll try to rephrase the question so you might be able to give an honest answer instead of a weaselly little piece of debate rhetoric: Is it always in every situation immoral to kill a child soldier?
I'm saying this entire post is about thinking hard about difficult decisions at the time and not relying on a pat 30 second justifications to do something horrible like liberals do with Iraq or healthcare. Which I said, in the original post.
Everyone centers their discussion around their personal opinion and how other's arguments interact with their personal opinion.
You're right, it's bad faith for me to answer my interpretation of the specific questions you've asked and instead I should be answering your interpretation of the questions you've asked which is apparently magically available to me, and only in situations of bad faith does those interpretation differ, and the last 60 years of analytic philosophy hasn't made massive changes to it's structure to solve the unheard of issue of people talking past each other in a discussion.
No
Okay, then provide me internal documents from the people in the house or the bolsheviks that at the time communicate they are very well aware that this killing is done without any justification or rationale.
Yeah, and the good faith part is then in not dismissing others arguments as insufficient just because you disagree with them, when you're discussing something without an objective answer.
Nah you're right it's much better to argue about the definition of a word or a phrase instead of answering in good spirit. Great discussions come when we very well understand what is being discussed, but we pretend we don't in order to continue the debate and to avoid any argument we don't like, or any thing phrased not in completely perfect communication. Pedantry is awesome and a great way to make this space ND inclusive, lets focus even more on verbage rather than meaning.
Thank you for answering. When would it not be immoral?
See in my view, the default assumption is that the killing of children is unjustified unless an affirmative justification is offered and presented beforehand. You're welcome to adopt the inverse position that the killing of kids is justified by default unless it can be affirmatively shown that the perpretators knew they were behaving in an unjustified manner. I'd hesitate in taking up such common cause with American police unions, but if that is our disagreement then there isn't really anything else to discuss.
If I find an argument unconvincing, I'm not doing anyone else an favors pretending I found them convincing. I've set what in my mind seems an achievable standards, and others have had fruitful conversation over it, and given the effort I've put into the original post and comments to make my position and comments clear, accusations of bad faith carry absolutely no water with me. You're welcome to make them, but I simply won't wear them.
I see absolutely no distinction between these two things. Sometimes disagreements in beliefs do come down to disagreements of definitions and so to relegate discussion of them to the realm of bad faith is to not take discussion as a serious enterprise.
It language, verbiage is what carries meaning. If anything, asking someone to construct a mental model of their interlocutor and respond to what they think that mental model means as opposed to the plain language on the page is far less ND inclusive.
When the child soldier presents a clearly articulable, imminent and proximate threat to the life or wellbeing of others.
How do you know they didn't provide affirmative justification beforehand? You've made it so the requirement to disprove your thesis to be the presentation of internal documents that verify the soviets did in fact carry out an investigation to fulfill your set of subjectively chosen arbitrary limits, and should they fail to fulfill your specific limits, then they are unjustified. I am asking you to prove that they knew they were acting unjustifiably, amorally, irationally, in pure anger or likewise. I am asking for a communique that says "we know they're innocent and there's no risk, kill them anyway". I am asking you to live up to your own standard.
As I and others have pointed out your standards are weighted in favour to supporting your argument, you keep changing on what basis this argument rests - Moral, legal, historical, materialist, rhetorical - and you, as has been highlighted to you, do not fulfill the standards you yourself set.
Also, since we're doing pedantry: You can't wear words.
Asking someone to not focus on imperfect communication and to ask clarifying questions in good spirit, rather hostilely dig into a perceived fault in a specific interpretation of what was communicated does not make this site ND inclusive. It is debatebroism and pedantry.
How would you know the child presents an immediate and proximate threat?
As I've said elsewhere, I don't care what standards they use. I insist that they outline those standards ahead of time and then see if they are met. I insist that they adopt some articulable moral framework beforehand to see if killing the kid is justified, and that those standards give appropriate care and weight to the execution of a child. We universally agree that the ad hoc standards used by American policing of "I perceived a possible threat" is insufficient to justify killing an unarmed child. I want to see evidence they put more thought into this than American cops, because I think killing unarmed kids who present no imminent threat is bad.
I hold that is no standard of evidence required to justify not killing an unarmed kid. It is prima facie justified in my view and I imagine, in the view of nearly everyone here. Surely we both agree that the standards of justifying killing kids and the standards to justify not killing kids are radically different.
But one can of course wear accusations.
I didn't know of the need to clarify; I thought I understood your question, and gave the provided my answer. I'm not faulting you for asking that question, there was nothing wrong with that question. I just didn't understand it as the one you meant to be asking. I simply do not care about accusations of debatebroism and pedantry, as I don't understand what the former is even supposed to be beyond "arguing with me in a way I don't like" and the latter is just a pejorative of verbal precision (which in logic and mathematics is absolutely vital, which is why often times symbols with incredibly well-defined meetings take the place of words). The tone and tenor of the conversation should have been immediately clear from the outset in the OP, where I spent an entire 500 talking about things I don't care about here (the Marxist view on morality) so that the discussion can much more precisely, and dare I say pedantically frame in it's moral terms. If you don't like that tenor and tone, you're welcome not to engage with it's source. I don't arguments that are peppered with the dumb emojjis on this website, so when I see people arguing like that, I block them.
Well, perhaps I'm aware of the fact I am in a warzone, I see the child is armed, I see the child pointing a gun at other people. Everyone here would agree that such an evidentiary threshold that the threat is reasonable, proximal, and articulable is met in this case, I presume.
You are once again ignoring the argument in order to dig into a specific choice of phrase. If you are truly a professor then I feel really bad for any student that deviates in the least way from NT communication norms.
You are also dishonest here as you say you do not care what standards they use, but when standards have been presented to you, you have dismissed them - You do therefore care.
You are here once again making the same false equivalency as you did in the last thread where you equate any child to heirs to the throne of a monarchy in the middle of a civil war.
I don't really give a shit what you're asked to prove, as we're not discussing you, but the killing of the Romanovs, and for this killing to be justified you require very specific historical documents (which you know are not available, thus creating a standard that is unfulfillable, yet not accepting that we simply cannot know). I therefore ask you to prove that your thesis is correct: That the soviets did this action knowing it was not justified, as that is what you've been saying it is. Once again it is incredibly poor form of you to attempt this rhetorical weaseling rather than admitting you might've made a mistake.
Oh so we're accepting slang? So we are accepting unclear communication that could be interpreted in several ways, and we're expected to understand what is communicated rather than focus down on one very specific communication uttered? I thought we were doing pedantry, but if we're doing collouqial communication then that seems to be exhausting.
You're doing this thing again where you're digging into something communicated weirdly and then attacking that, rather than what was communicated. You then think up wild specific scenarios in which we don't assume good faith of each other (literally one of the rules) but rather start using language to obfuscate what we mean. This whole act you're doing is really shitty, and once again - as has been communicated to you, which you now no longer go into in this argument, though that was the whole point of this specific thing you're answering - is making the site less welcome for ND people, who are well-known to have issued communicating clearly as is. You should in fact give a shit about being a debatebro or pedant, as such a person is a person that makes a space unwelcoming.
How would you know the child was armed with an actual weapon and how would you know their weapon actually worked? It might be dysfunctional or just a toy. How would you know their shot would be deadly? How would you know that it was necessary to shoot to kill rather than just wound?
Also in this case you would not have to carry out the calculations you demanded of the soviets? You would not have to provide the documentation before taking the action?
What if you were alone? What if there were no witnesses?