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this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2023
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[Outdated, please look at pinned post] Casual Conversation
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You’re thinking way too much into it. We should be celebrating each other’s cultures, not racially gating them. It’s not offensive or racist when non-whites/Germans wear lederhosen at Oktoberfest. It’s not racist when black people drink wine. Humans have shared cultures, food, and clothing for millennia. It’s a good thing.
I would agree in general, except that with many, particularly older cultural perceptions of non-European peoples, there's a great deal of fetishization (meaning primarily in the non-sexual sense) and belittlement inherent in the depictions, so one must be careful with such things.
I feel "protecting" them by walking on eggshells around things related to their culture is just a continuation of that fetishization(sp?) when we should all just be sharing and celebrating one another's culture. Obviously don't mock, but anything that is good natured as this event seems to be is exactly what humans should be doing
I agree that we should share and celebrate each other's cultures, and I'm generally opposed to the idea of 'cultural appropriation' being a bad thing. However, in taking aspects of another culture, one must be aware (or at least, one's society must be concerned when spreading the style) of the deeper implications that may come with it.
Wearing the everyday/dress (or traditionally everyday/dress) clothes of another culture in a way that's just meant to be, well, fashion? Fuck anyone who says that's wrong. Wearing the ceremonial articles of another culture in a way that's meant to be fashion? Somewhat dicey, somewhat concerning, though I would argue that it doesn't inherently have to be bad - but one must definitely understand the context of it. Wearing the national dress of a culture in a way that's meant to be amusing or humorous? Eggshells are warranted.
If there is significant inequality, it can very much come across as dismissive or punching down, which is pretty unambiguously bad. Else, it's generally accepted as ribbing without deeper meaning, lacking any deeper context. As an American, I generally don't get upset when someone makes stereotypical American jokes, or putting on a cowboy hat and exaggerated affectation, because I know it's just ribbing. Whereas, as an individual with mental disorders, I can be sensitive about neurotypical folk making mental illness jokes or 'pretending' to be mentally ill as a joke - because I'm not sure that it's not coming from a place of genuine ignorance or malice (or worse - I'm sure that it is), due to the cultural power imbalance between the neurodiverse and the neurotypical being still quite... lopsided.
Were it the other way around - if neurodiverse folk were accepted and Americans were not - I imagine my reactions would likewise be reversed. So too with ethnic groups who are discriminated against by modern society - caution is warranted, and sensitivity to such things is not an incorrect reaction on their part.
But this isn't celebrating Hawaiian culture because coconut bras and grass skirts are not Hawaiian culture, lol
Then how could this possibly be interpreted as disrespectful of Hawaiian culture?
Are you asking how engaging in stereotype is disrespectful?
If it has nothing to do with Hawaiian culture then it's not a stereotype. Were you mistaken about it not being associated with Hawaiian culture?
What do you think a stereotype is..?
A widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.
For example, coconut bras and grass skirts?
You're missing the point. You can't both claim that grass skirts and coconut bras have nothing to do with Hawaiian culture, then immediately say its offensive to Hawaiian culture, because if they had nothing to do with Hawaiian culture, how can it be offensive to them?
You're statement that it has nothing to do with Hawaiian culture was the issue here.
I'm hardly missing your point, I just think it's ridiculous. Purporting that something is associated with another culture, even if untrue, can certainly be offensive. It's like watermelon and fried chicken for Black people. Would you claim that is inoffensive?
... because they're associated with Hawaiian culture?
'Associated with [by outsiders]' is a wholly different animal than 'part of [according to members]'. That's literally the point of the conversation we're having.
The logical follow-up question is, "who made you the arbiter of Hawaiian culture?" I propose that coconuts and grass skirts are very much associated with Hawaiian culture today. Just like tikka masala is associated with Indian culture, even though it was invented by a Brit, and tempura is associated with Japanese culture, even though it was invented by the Portuguese.
There isn't an authority on what is and is not associated with one's culture. That's highly subjective, and changes much over time. Eventually cultures adopt and relinquish all kinds of values, practises, and customs. It can happen intentionally, but usually it's quite by accident.
There's a very simple answer to your question that it seems like you're almost deliberately avoiding: native Hawaiians.
They're not a homogenous group, and there isn't a cultural leader. I know a Hawaiian girl who thinks coconuts and grass skirts are associated with Hawaiian culture. So I guess they are, then, by your standard.