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As Someone Learning German, I Know This Pain
(lemmy.tf)
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this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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How aggregious is misgendering items in other languages? I assume it's no big deal and may not even be worth correcting most of the time?
In German, they sometimes add the gender into the word. Like if you hire a few "Stripper" in German, they will be all male, while "Stripperinnen" would be all female and there is no generally accepted way if you want a mix or non-binaries, you'd have to describe it. This can lead to quite a lot of confusion, especially with words derived from English like this.
So what I'm saying is, if you use the English word and misgender, it can be a big deal. Like 7 or 8 inches big, on some occasions.
The example you used involved humans. They were asking about items.
It’s the same. Misgendering any object leads to confusion at best and makes you sound like an utter moron at worst.
Any chance you can help me understand why?
I took German in high school (which was a long time ago) - and yes, I can understand the moron part because if you speak poorly in any language that can happen.
But if I say die bleistift instead of der bleistift, how is that going to confuse someone? Bleistift is still the German word for pencil either way, right? The gendering of inanimate objects always felt very arbitrary to me.
I can explain: it's not, it's a lie. Using the wrong gender feels wrong but that's about it. It's a common second language learner mistake and it doesn't make you sound like a moron. With a little luck, you took a gender that's accepted in other regions of Germany (like die Email is standard while das Email is southern east I think). It's a mess.
Technically, there are ambiguities but not really like der Leiter the leader die Leiter the ladder and of cause you could find an example where this is really confusing, unless you are a bit patient and have some empathy.
In any case, I have deep respect for everyone who learns the mess that's my native language and nobody should feel bad for making minor mistakes.
Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it.
As you are no doubt aware, English is renowned for rules that are rules until they aren't, and quite a lot of other ambiguities for non-native speakers, so I can appreciate this.
When I talk to someone who is clearly not a native English speaker, and they apologize for their English I usually point out that their English is way better than my (whatever their language is) since without fail it's not a language I can speak at all. Seems to put people at ease.
To stay with people as an example: die Tänzer would mean plural right? But as an answer to a question, it might be confusing. Let’s assume you’re asked: „Wer war gestern Abend auf der Bühne?“. Assuming both participants know it’s an establishment with either several dancers or one female act, misgendering the female dancer trough omission of the correct ending would lead to confusion, since the false answer would be the same answer as the one being given by someone overwhelmed with gendering: „Die Tänzer“.
That is by definition confusing. Just because you can accommodate for it, doesn’t mean it isn’t initially.
About the moron part: that does really depend as well. I happen to work with a few people who are not German native speakers and tend to be very articulate in English. The way they often misgender common words in German really takes away from their credibility, since it happens so often. Doing it once or twice can be excused, but doing it often does not help you seem intelligent.
In your example, you wouldn't use the definite article anyway. "Eine Tänzer" could be wrong indefinite article or wrong noun, but unless you aren't hyper obsessed with gender (of people), it doesn't matter. "Die Tänzer" would only be used when they were introduced before. That's how define articles work. Sure, a foreigner could get that wrong, too, but then there are already 2 mistakes and of course, more mistakes make it worse. Also: if it's established that it's a dancing establishment, why not ask about "how many dancers" instead? As I said, you can construct cases, but it's not easy and yours isn't very good I'm afraid.
About your work environment: I get that it can come across as unprofessional, especially in writing. But in writing you have grammar checks, if you're lucky (I just checked and libreoffice sadly doesn't, but maybe with addons and I think MS office (which I'm forced to use at work) has it by default). And if they are viewed as morons in spoken form, I'm sorry to inform you that you work in a toxic environment. My non native colleges never had that problem as far as I know.
I think the case about dialect I made in response to OPs question is the better explanation.
You obviously work in a far more open an relaxed sector than I do. I administer in forestry services within Germany. Usually we get foreign subcontractors to do hard labour felling trees (European competition laws are the main culprit). It is important for everyone’s safety that they understand precisely what is at stake. Anyone not using precise language and relying on the information gained trough insufficient means is a moron in that field of work. And thinking, that, understanding a little of what was being said is enough to gather the entire context, a lot of the people we work with rely on that. To combat that we partially switched to pictograms.
And there you are in one of the culture wars discussions we currently have in Germany. While progressives are using gendered nouns specificing which genders you are referring too (for example: Tänzerinnen and Tänzer – often abbreviated Tänzer*innen – if you had female and male dancers, Tänzerinnen if only female and Tänzer if only male), conservatives want to keep the old tradition of making a group of people male once a single male is included.
This has real world implications, though. There are jobs which are often gendered female – typically lower paid jobs like kindergarden teacher or nurse – and others are typically gendered male, like engineer or politican. There have been a couple studies with children where children were asked if their could think of taking a specified job. And if the job gender matched their gender, they were more likely to see themselves suitable for that job. And if you now remember that engineers are typically referred to as male and nurses are typically referred as female, this is one expiation on why Germany has one of the largest uncorrected gender pay gaps in Europe.
The trick is to say the article very fast or very ambiguously, so that all anyone knows is that you didn't say das.
Grammatical gender is an indicator on how the words are declined in different cases.
Thus, in the case of compound nouns, the noun at the end is what determines the gender: das Blei + der Stift -> der Bleistift.
Also, tables look fucking horrible on mobile. Or is it only me (using Liftoff).
As mentioned in another comment: it shouldn’t be. Youth culture has embraced this in part. However it lacks a certain finesse and makes it difficult for some people to differentiate on whether you wanted to use plural or singular for some people, especially in dialects which tend to omit the ending which would otherwise clarify the gender or singular/plural.
Edit:
Example: „Gibsch ma mal da Bleistift!“ (Singular) „Gibsch ma mal d‘Bleistift!“ (Plural)
Ein Schwabe.
Badner.
Wouldn't it just be Stripper/Stripperen and Stripperin/Stripperinnen?
But what would a group of male and females be referred to as I don’t think you can switch to the neutral version of Das Stripper. So maybe the answer is that a mixed group is Stripperen since that would be closest to neutral? Duolingo hasn’t covered mixed gender stripper scenarios.
Plural of Stripper is Stripper. You can say Stripper to any group of them, but in the case of having exclusively female strippers, you can also specify that by using Stripperinnen. It's an option, not a must.
My guess is the default would be the masculine Stripperen for a mixed group
The plural of Stripper is Stripper.
Yeah, German has that as does English. Host vs Hostess, Actor vs Actress, etc. There is a push to only use the male word (I've never seen it go the other way). What a lot of people don't know is that surnames also preserve things like this. Brewer was a male brewer but Brewster was a female one.
You don't do this with non german words like striper. That's not how german works.
It sounds very weird and you know immediately it's a foreigner speaking. When you are fluent the genders just come naturally, I don't think I've ever seen a native making a mistake like that, maybe children.
I wouldn't correct anyone unless they want to learn though, the noun itself is more important and it carries the meaning across.
This is for Brazilian Portuguese at least.
I can vouch it's the same for Mexican Spanish.
It's jarring but obviously completely acceptable from someone learning the language
Yeah, it just sounds off and someone might correct you but it isn't a big deal.
Every once in a while there are two words that are written the same but have different gender, if you use the wrong article it'll get confusing for a second and you'll have to figure out from context what was actually meant.
If you misgender something you either:
Are a native speaker that messed up (but know the correct gender), so either you correct yourself or just continue, since everyone will understand that you messed up and will understand you perfectly.
Are learning the language: if the other person is close to you, you'll be correct to help you learn the language. Else, the other person will notice that you're not a native speaker and will switch the gender in their head to not discourage you. Unless the other person is an asshole.
There are very few situations where the hearer can't just correct the gender in their head, so it's not very serious. I'm talking about Spanish though, idk if in other languages is different.
In spoken language? As other said, you notice and ypu know you don't talk to native speaker. You might correct them just ao they can learn and carry on.
On exam, which is the contextnof the meme? Pretty aggregious.
French is just kind of compact (they even have the 'de' to un-ambigous things I figure) so sometimes the phrase rolls on but means something completely different, it might work out or not but can be confusing.
My master mistake, at dinner with my SOs family;
Tout le monde veut rentrer dans le moule.
This is the correct version.
Edit: BTW Swedish is the other way around and it's quite easy to understand even if you missgender.
That must've generated some thunderous laughter :D
That's the most frustrating part about Danish/English. Does saying the wrong article break communication? no, most people won't notice unless you really linger on it or point it out (you probably wouldn't hear it half the time in Danish anyways). Does it look fucking stupid and wrong when you write it? yes 🙃
Danish is a gigachad language because they use the incredibly satisfying /ð/ as in ved. I don't even know exactly what that thing is it's some kind of an abomination of a velarized laminal approximant and absolutely impossible for any non-native to pronounce.
the soft d? It's not hard imo, as a non-native. I understand language is mostly muscle memory/training but really it's just learning how to use the ... back? of your throat and tongue to make the right sounds with danish. Most of it requires your tongue to be flat or throat open to some degree.
This all sounds very sexual but I do truly mean it LOL
Informally, no native will ever correct you for misgendering a word - it sounds weird and stunted, but changes little in communicating the sorts of simple ideas I'd imagine a low-proficiency speaker would need to get through.
In a more formal setting, 10/10 times someone will correct you.
It would look or sound really stupid and be absolutely incorrect if you have done it in Polish. There is high chance you would be mocked for it.