918
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2023
918 points (98.8% liked)
politics
19072 readers
1918 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It's depressing that something like that is needed in the first place.
Yeah it is. I've actually heard people make this argument too. How stupid do you have to be to believe that?
stupid enough to re-elect DeSantis
Ol' Pudding Fingers, himself, king of the Go-Go boots! The meatball-iest of Rons!
At the Atlanta History museum there's a whole "both sides" exhibit on the civil war that makes this argument (and makes me vomit).
They put it in just in time for the '96 Atlanta Olympics and it's been there ever since.
Atlanta has a bunch of traitors carved into a big rock on the side of a mountain too.
It’s annoying that the confederacy is viewed so closely to slavery that the only people that support them are people that want slaves (I mean there’s no other reason to support it now but it’s because of how they are viewed by dumb people)
The war wasn’t about slavery, the union had slave states but people without high school educations don’t know that
No one talks about Egypt taking over the cotton market or the parallels to today
When did I say slavery didn’t exist?
That doesn’t say slavery doesn’t exist, I know the American school system sucks but learn to read
Oh so you can’t handle being wrong
Saying the war wasn’t over slavery isn’t slavery denial, anyone who ever took a history class on it would have that stance. That’s why it’s only racists that say that with their whole “the south will rise again” mantra
You can’t handle being wrong because when you claimed I said slavery never existed you kept doubling down on it
Idiots like you make me want to kill myself, I thought this site would have less but everywhere you go it’s just more and more conservatives who can only ever repeat what they were told because their brains don’t know how to think
Pay attention at all to the world around you
Conservatives will take Leftist positions to garner support. Trump advocated for more social policies than any candidate, but never implemented them
If you’re actually a leftist (just very stupid for one) then try to apply some form of rationality to your life
I would like to think people that dumb can only be conservative because it shows an absence of thinking skills
Oh you’re confused, I have critical thinking. That’s why I don’t share your conservative views
My view of the Confederacy is a lot worse than yours because you think it was just about slavery and that everything else was jolly
You’re a confederate apologist and have no idea about right or wrong because you just parrot what you hear rather than thinking at all.
You’re a confederate apologist because your stance is “if it weren’t for slavery then they’d be good”
Being from the south makes sense though
When Biden wins again, if there is another civil war it’s nice to know you’ll say it’s because he stole the election “because that’s what the rebels said it was about “
I don’t care how many of you are wrong
Go to Trump rally and say Biden won, you’ll get the same result
Lol what a stupid threat, if I was at all afraid of being blocked then how is that any different than being blocked?
You should block me because you possess no ability to think.
The confederate states themselves said otherwise at the time.
This is both the most ignorant thing I've read today, and also ironic considering it's followed by complaining about ignorant people
Way to show your ignorance and inability to learn from history. It’s about voting power and the same thing is happening today
Let’s take a group of states and for this example we will call them “red states” now imagine their policies lack broad appeal but they keep winning. Hard to imagine right? Hopefully you can fathom it
Now let’s come to an obstacle where they think it can either destroy their ensure they always win. Let’s say that obstacle is voting maps. Technically if the voting maps are fair then they always lose so what should they do? Rig the maps of course
Now let’s pretend another part of the country is blue, they have popular opinions and stand to benefit from fair voting. Let’s pretend they pass a law requiring voting be fair, well what can the red states do at that point? They have to rebel, it’s the only way to stay in power. Maybe they will attempt to avoid certifying an election or maybe they will storm that capital. If all else fails then they might attempt to form their own union
Now that you’ve seen a hypothetical, imagine if instead of red states and blue states it was slave states and non-slaves states. Now imagine if the blue/non-slave states wanted to bring in a bunch more states but they could only be blue (non-slave). Well then you would never have a red government
And that is what happened, the slave states were worried that they wouldn’t be able to control the country so they rebelled
I hope this entry level civil war education showed you how saying it was about slavery is dangerous and it fails to teach people the lessons from it that we are currently going through again
It was about the southern states wanting to own slaves. They said so themselves in their secession letters.
The northern states, not being complete monsters or wanting to treat fellow human beings like property, refused to let anyone join their side who wanted slaves.
Like come on
https://kajabi-storefronts-production.kajabi-cdn.com/kajabi-storefronts-production/file-uploads/themes/2153266432/settings_images/f0f6348-d4b2-f2c3-1bca-feab7a3cbf4c_Wr91wtHoQSW84QHEZWnA_pasted_image_0_12.png
I know you’re wrong but you don’t have to lie
Yes, and laws had been passed in (nearly) all that either slavery was outlawed or no NEW slaves could be imported. Slavery was being gradually eliminated and that's what the rebel states were upset about. And the potential economic impact.
In March 1861, Alexander Stephens, vice president of the Confederate States of America, gave his view on the issue:
It's not accurate to say it was "only" about slavery, but it's the best one-point answer you could give, and the biggest issue.
The issue is that there has been a giant movement to minimize the "we really wanted slavery" part are reframe it was a "state's rights" thing which is highly inaccurate way to frame things and stupid.
I talked about this in another comment
But thank you for having an actual comment
… You haven’t actually read any of those letters, have you.
So obviously they are wrong because the Union already existed with the confederate states in it but let’s give this person the benefit of the doubt and say they meant after some of the slave states left (hard when they are dumb enough to think it was over slavery) as you can see from the image. You have grey states for Union states with slavery at the same time as the confederacy existed. Even if you want to ignore my explanation for why the Confederacy left the Union (not kicked out, not unable to join because the Union was moral) they are straight up lying by saying there wasn’t slavery in the Union
Again the only people that say it was about slavery are racists who want slavery to return . Everyone else is smarter than that
Should probably change your name to ILikeDownvotes
I think it's more like not explaining it in terms of the economic conditions for which slavery really provided the basis for. Like the northern merchant economy vs the south planter class. When anyone could essentially get free real estate, convincing people to work the land to generate profit required coercion. Indentured servants since colonization were used, "white" slaves even preferred, but the existing trade networks like the Dutch were really instrumental in providing the means to extract profit from the land. Racism and white supremacy didn't cause this, they developed out of this arrangement, the purpose of which was to produce cotton, corn, etc.
Slavery was crucial though because the public campaign against chattel slavery in the north was very real and a major contributor to the public acceptance and motivation for the war. The US as it exists today was essentially built between the Civil War and WW1, and reducing it to just slavery is really not explaining everything, but also it really was "about" slavery in many ways. So I just say yes it was about slavery, but also everything around slavery, and the things that made slavery "necessary" for that economic system to function.
This leads to history repeating itself as people never learn past that
Having read the standards, possibly the worst part about them is that it's not written such that you have to teach that racist bs, but it's obviously written to give cover to those who do. So it's not so much that it's supporting a bullshit way of looking at slavery as an institution in the past. It's really supporting the horrible people who continue to think that way today, and enabling them to pass it on to a new generation.
They're not stupid, but they're trying to ensure the next generation is.
Ugh... yeah you're probably right
Alright I'll bite. Why did it help?
IIRC, the common argument is that modern Black Americans have great opportunities by virtue of being in America. Without slavery, they would have been born in Africa.
This is ludicrous for a variety of reasons. It's the same kind of thinking that leads to people saying your relative died "because of God's plan", as if suffering always has a good reason to it.
They overlook the destabilization of Africa that went on during colonialism that led to its current state
The lesson Florida is teaching is that slaves learned 'useful skills.' They don't say who those skills were useful to though.
Yeah this argument fails because it subverts the context slavery existed in with a modern notion of American exceptionalism, and applies it in a transhistorical fashion to events in the past.
I could make a half hearted Devil's advocate argument about it, but ultimately it's a major detriment to the people living under slavery. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evi_i7R0SFQ& just listen to the words of this letter and tell me that it was a benefit.
Even with the Devil's Advocate argument, sure they may have learned skills that could have benefit them after they were freed, BUT THEY WERE SLAVES.
Also, it ignores the fact that society exists in Africa, so its not like they'd all be in loincloths or w/e the racist caricature of Africans they have is.
Also, how about all the slaves that were never freed because they died before emancipation? How did they benefit?
It's like suggesting the holocaust benefitted Jews because they got Israel. How do you even apply this logic... that it's okay to do evil because eventually something good is determined to happen that makes up for it? Do future generations getting a good thing justify the system that perpetrates oppression in the present day? Something good happening isn't determined, and calling the post-war existence of freed slaves "good" is also a stretch.
They don't. It's just bullshit they made up to distract and confuse you. It's a congress of baboons throwing shit at the wall to see what will stick.