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this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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I'm not Israeli - but I grew up in a disturbingly similar political environment, Apartheid-era South Africa. In theory, conscription applied to all white males of "military age" (ie, a kid that's physically capable but still too dumb to resist the brainwashing). However, in reality, the children of the rich and powerful could buy their way out of it through various means (such as Phony Stark famously skipping South Africa right before his 18th birthday despite the fact that he wasn't as allergic to white supremacism as he claimed to be), while working class whites couldn't. I'm willing to bet that it pretty much works the same way in Israel.
There are lots of reasons why the children of the rich and powerful could end up on the front lines in wars that are still mostly foisted onto the children of the poor - an abusive father might gaslight their children into it, or it may simply be a case that not participating in all the jingoism might have an effect on careers later on (which might be the case in Israel, considering that militarism is so entwined in politics over there that it would have seemed insane even in Apartheid-era South Africa). It could just be that Snot's head has been filled with militarism and wouldn't dream of not participating. But the rich do get a choice in whether their children will be "boots on the ground" or not.
And no... the Israeli political establishment is no more making "ethically and morally correct decisions" than Apartheid-era South Africa's was - it is, after all, a white supremacist settler-colonialist state. The only way to make "ethically and morally correct decisions" is to not serve the Israeli war machine in any way whatsoever.
As a South African i couldn't have said it better myself. Israelis and israeli apologists i notice get very offended when you compare israel to Apartheid South Africa, i mean the parallels are so clear to see.
No, I take offense to comparing Israel to Apartheid South Africa because it's dumb. Not even saying it's wrong, it's just a dumb comparison.
Read again what the person you replied to said - it's basically "I don't have any information about Israel that's relevant to the question, but I'll just go ahead and assume Israel and Apartheid South Africa are the same thing and reply based on that. This will show Israel and Apartheid South Africa have a lot in common".
The rich and powerful can buy their way out of stuff anywhere...
I don't understand why you wrote so much about Israel when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Calling middle eastern jews white supremacists is fucking insane, for example. I bet you wouldn't even be able to distinguish between an average Israeli Jew and Arab.
The plight of Ethiopian Jews in Israel
So did my parents (and many others) which emigrated from a soviet state after the fall of the soviet union. And they're very white.
Israelis are just xenophobic, this isn't white supremacy. There is a famous old Israeli skit about how every single group which arrived faced these issues. You guys are unknowingly spewing the same bullshit extreme right wing politicians are saying in Israel about Mizrahi Jews.
Good point about "white supremacy" being the wrong term used here. I agree that calling it xenophobia/racism is more correct in this case.
Are you talking about the European Jewish people who dominate Israel's political and economic establishments? Have you noticed that Netanyahu doesn't look Ethiopian, perhaps?
No, Clyde... it's perfectly obvious who it is that doesn't know what it is they are talking about, and it's the people doing apologetics for white supremacism. Ie, you.
I don't support the state of Israel, but I hate this bullshit argument so much - where do you think the European Jews came from to Europe, and why?
They came from Israel (the region, not the state, which didn't exist then) which they were expelled from, over generations, again and again, buy actual colonisers. And only wanted too return after centuries of pogroms that culminated in the holocaust, which was perpetrated by actual white supremacists.
Are racism, xenophobia, islamophobia and colourism all happening, and are influenced by white supremacy? Yes. Can Jews ever really be considered white supremacists? Not by any actual white supremacist, so no..
Is the state of Israel and the illegal settlements it supports now occupying some lands that aren't theres and oppressing the Palestinians whos lands those are? Yes.
Should they give those lands back and let their rightful residents live on them in peace (and be willing to share the places that are culturally and historically to both)? Yes.
Is Israel an apartheid state that discriminates against its Arab citizens? Yes.
Do Palestinians deserve freedom? Yes.
Does any of this erase thousands of years of history and mean that Jews, from wherever the fuck they were expelled to in the diaspora don't also have a rightful place on the land or are in any way comparable to actual colonisers who went to foreign lands they nor their ancestors had never set foot on and take them over? Absolutely fucking not.
More people really should actually study the history before making such ignorant claims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
I don´t often see reasonable and differentiated takes like yours. Must be tiring to argue right wing Israelis and Israel haters at the same time. Remember to take a break sometimes to not get burnout my dude :)
Yeah sure, you, a South African, know more than me, an Israeli, about Israel...
It's no surprise that European Jews dominate many parts of Israeli society when you consider the fact that most Jews who came to Israel before 1948 were European (the Jewish population rapidky expanded post-1948 as Jews were driven out of Arab countries), and rich European Jews with Zionist aspirations also invested a lot of money in Israel during this period.
I know you better than you think, Clyde... we were pretty much raised drenched in the same kind of propaganda. After all... Apartheid-South Africa and Israel were besties, weren't they? And despite the fact that the National Party took their white supremacism (and their antisemitism) straight from the nazis, too - imagine that?
Of course it isn't! For sure! You have that in common with every other white supremacist colonialist project out of sheer coincidence... totally not because the people sitting at the top of Israel's political and economic establishments learned their white supremacism from the best in the business - ie, the west.
You know... the west? The people who invented antisemitism right before they invented white supremacism?
"pretty much" being the key words, since the white people who colonised SA had never set foot there before nor had any history or claim to the land, while that absolutely isn't the case for Jewish people returning to their homeland.
Neither has the Europeans who colonised Palestine and created Israel, Clyde.
European Jewish people's "homeland" is Europe, genius. You know... the place where they were born and lived for more than a millenium before western antisemitism drove them out?
There is no valid Zionist "claim" to any part of the middle-east - never was, never has been. You might just as well "claim" Jerusalem as "western" because the Crusaders massacred it's population once.
Do European Jews not deserve safety?
Did the Yemenese Jews who came to Israel in the early 1900s European colonizers? They came right alongside the first waves of European Jews.
Did all the Jews who fled to Israel from Arab countries European colonizers?
Are the Jews who stayed in the land of Israel all through the ages European colonizers?
You know so much more than me about this topic though I'm sure.
Do tell... why can't they be safe in the place European Jewish people came from? You know... Europe?
Do tell... how well is non-European Jewish folk represented at the top of Israel's economic and political establishments, eh? Maybe put on your sunglasses before checking... it's white enough up there to burn your retinas clean off.
You answered this question yourself already. You are arguing in bad faith. There are still less Jews worldwide today than in 1939.
No, no, no, Clyde - you answer it. Tell me that the whole reason European Jewish people cannot be safe in the very place they came from is thanks to the very same states that is now flooding Israel with military funding and logistical support - states that, not coincidentally, all seem to have deep histories of antisemitism, white supremacism and colonialism.
And after that you can explain to me why Palestinians must bear the horrific cost of western antisemitism when Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with the invention of antisemitism.
The nazis lost the war. Welcome to the world post-1945, you might want to take a look at it.
I took a look, looks about the same at this point.
Only difference is the Jews have an army now.