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this post was submitted on 11 Dec 2023
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Fuck Hamas and its sympathizers, but fuck Israel for all the innocents it killed. They are both fucking terrorists at this point.
Israel lost any moral high ground from 10/7 a long time ago.
Their body count on innocent people and a way higher than hamas.
Support innocent Palestinians who are being killed
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
About the Hamas part: AFAIK October 7th was mainly a military attack against legitimate military targets with military goals, with the (very much undeniable, don't get me wrong) atrocities committed being individual action that hasn't been proven to come from the top, If I'm not wrong about that understanding I don't see how Hamas and Israel can be put in the same position here.
Wow, fuck the IDF but this is some serious dick riding for Hamas. The "lone actions of a few individuals"? Are you serious?
Unless you have evidence beyond "Israel claims it's real" yes, that's what happened.
Yes. Unless you have hard numbers or evidence Hamas leadership intended to cause civilian casualties we go with innocent until proven guilty. I mean hell why would the leadership want innocents killed? That's just bad press, and they're more useful as hostages.
There's plenty of evidence. What are you smoking? I have to ask are you trolling?
Evidence like what?
Yeah, so you're completely unaware or trolling, I can't tell. Hamas has been launching rockets into civilian area indiscriminately since forever. Hamas has sent suicide bombers into public areas with civilians for the past last thirty years. The attack on the music festival with two hundred teens and young adults killed was not the act of some lone wolf. Please tell me you're trolling because I can't believe people are this uninformed.
I was talking about the current attack. And the music festival is still strictly in fog of war territory. There are people Hamas soldiers killed, that's undeniable, but there are also people who were killed by reckless IDF fire and people who simply died in the crossfire.
We have at least some numbers. Last I checked (which I admit was weeks ago) the death toll in Gaza was 11,000 and Israel claimed to have killed 60-80 Hamas fighters. That's over 99% civilian deaths, and we know a significan portion of those are children. On October 7th, Palestinian militant groups killed about 1,200 people in Israel, 859 of them civilians. That's over 71% civilian deaths, ignoring the fact that most Israeli adults are reservists and so trained fighters.
I meant civilians people who were intentionally killed by Hamas (there's a significant number people who died in the crossfire or to reckless IDF fire), but yeah this too.
Also the death toll topped 18k.
They still killed a bunch of innocents. You can not deny that, if Hamas actually had a problem with it, then they should surrender everyone who killed innocents.
Do that, and maybe we can talk.
10/7 was a terrorist attack against civilians, the blow back has disproportionately affected innocent Palestinians.
Don’t defend terrorists.
If a legitimate army had soldiers that did that they would make a VERY public display of what happens to people who attack innocent people at a music festival and release videos of them going house to house in a settlement.
I have seen the pictures and videos from both sides and they are both indefensible.
I'm waiting for the IOF to make a very public display of the apache gunners who shot indiscriminately at the festival, or the tank commanders firing indiscriminately at homes in the kibbutzim. Your argument falls flat when the Israeli army not only is killing thousands of civilians in Gaza (and are proud of it btw), but also their own citizens on Oct 7.
Got any sources on any of this?
Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000
The Electronic Intifada: https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
Mondoweiss: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
The Grayzone: https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/
https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
https://farside.link/invidious/watch?v=m9Ja8zHUjlw
I don’t doubt that, I clearly stated fuck them both.
I have seen the videos from Hamas going building to building and shooting out tires and trying to scare people out with them.
Everyone has seen the Israeli videos, even their best ones don’t make them look good
israel killed their own, it's been proven and admitted even on zionist media
https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
also, israel admitted that hamas didn't even know about the festival
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000
Yeah they probably don't have a problem with it, that's true enough and can't be defended. But they didn't go "we should go there and kill civilians", is what I mean. Some people have that impression about the attack and that's playing right into Israel's hands. Unfortunately punishing soldiers who commit warcrimes is a standard neither side is trying to reach.
Also, from what we know the music festival wasn't a one-sided Hamas massacre; there was combat with the IDF and many of the people who died died in the crossfire. Not saying there weren't people who killed innocents (particularly the guy who threw that one grenade should be hanged), but the image that Hamas went in guns blazing and killed a bunch of people is at this point in time plain Israeli propaganda that spread before the details were known.