193
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
193 points (87.0% liked)
politics
19144 readers
1942 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Nope. Please pack your ridiculous strawmen away. You're sounding mighty Republican with your bad faith arguments.
How is that a strawman?
How is it NOT a strawman to pretend that I ever advocated for government gridlock?
If politicians don’t negotiate across the aisle when majorities in Congress are slim then nothing will get done.
Did you or did you not imply that Fetterman shouldn’t negotiate?
I said that nothing good could come from pretending to negotiate immigration with radically anti-immigrant fascists who aren't even PRETENDING to negotiate in good faith.
Three things can result:
No changes
Changes for the worse and nothing else (by far the most likely)
Tiny changes for the better on one or two very specific things in exchange for massive systemic change for the worse.
You're pretending that the GOP is a normal and legitimate political party rather than a fundamentally dishonest fascist movement.
Is your name Neville? Because you're being very Chamberlain right now
So again, you’re saying he shouldn’t negotiate with republicans which will result in nothing getting done.
How is what I said a strawman?
By inferring that what I want is "nothing getting done", when in reality I've been very clear that what I want is for things to not get worse.
When you give concessions to fascists, things get worse. STOP pretending that the GOP is a legitimate party operating in good faith.
The GOP as a party supports fascism yes. But individual members of Congress are on a spectrum and can be influenced to vote in our best interests.
That’s why there are almost always some members that aren’t voting along their party lines. It’s happened like this since the inception of our government.
That’s why diplomacy is important.
Just look at how democrats won concessions from the house on the spending bill recently and made republicans look stupid in the process.
That happened because of diplomacy. Your approach would’ve resulted in a government shutdown instead.
If you truly believe that, I have a mountain chalet in Florida to sell you.
Name one time since 2016 that anything good came from negotiating with the GOP on immigration. Hell, name one time in this MILLENNIUM.
Anything even resembling change for the better on immigration being amongst the exceptions that makes your "almost" necessary.
Spending is not the same thing as immigration. While fascists don't like social programs that benefit those who need help, they don't have an automatic visceral fear and hatred of them like they do with immigrants.
As an aside, they were already doing that themselves
No. The Republicans hold the federal government hostage every time raising the debt ceiling comes up. It's as much part of what they do as demagougery in general is.
Letting them persecute and otherwise abuse immigrants more or less doesn't change that. It just lets them persecute and otherwise abuse immigrants more.
The idea is to negotiate in good faith to show that is our stance and not give in to bad faith negotiations.
If we don’t negotiate at all then there’s no way forward.
Not true. If your ideas are good enough and you show that you're not too weak and/or corrupt to implement them, you get big enough majorities to bypass the GOP completely, which you should then do.
It's worse to negotiate in good faith with those that are negotiating in bad faith than to not negotiate at all, since those negotiating in bad faith have no reason to give any concessions and every reason to demand concessions from their opposition.
Same goes for arguing I'm good faith with people who are either arguing in bad faith or basing their entire argument on a commonly believed false premise.
So I'm gonna let you go gaslight someone else now. Have the day you deserve.
You’re ignoring the optics of not negotiating. This is politics. How you present yourself impacts voters’ opinions.
No one is gaslighting or making strawman arguments or any other psych buzzwords over here.
You have a good one too. I’m glad the internet allows us to have these conversations because I think it is important to have discorse with people of opposing views.
Because two comments back you literally said it was non negotiable. What the ever fuck do you want to happen?
I didn't say it was non-negotiable, I said that Republicans have no willingness to negotiate in good faith and as such, nothing good comes from pretending that they will.
Don't misquote me to me. It confirms what I and anyone else reading already suspected: that you're either being dishonest or having trouble understanding plain English.
Ok let's paint all the republicans as one monolithic fascist block. I'll grant you that. What's next? What do you want to happen?