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this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2023
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So? Does it matter if it was 1400, 1300 or 1139? It's mass murder anyway, and Hamas are still bastards for killing them. And Netanyahu is still a bastard for using it as a free pass on bombing Gaza. These numbers don't change anything at all.
Can one imagine a rave party with a thousand+ of people, and then imagine them all dead? Or a european-like district with housing, schools, shops for 13k people - you can see them on Google Maps, they were pretty sweet in spite of israeli politics - all leveled down to the ground. It's a rave party not unlike one happening near you, this neighborhood is not unlike yours. These people may not speak english, yet they share basic things with you, like, they could've liked the same songs, the same movies like you do, some of them could've even been trekkies. And now they are lost. They won't have a child, they won't share a funny story over drinks with friends, they won't build that birdhouse their elderly parents asked for. They are dead, non-existent, and all work put into making them proper adults is lost. And whatever it's a thousand, or a thousand of thosands, it's too much to ignore. Every person shot or slayed there is too much to ignore. There should be a ceasefire agreement first, it needs to stop.
Did that happen?
Also while atrocities were committed on October 7th, AFAIK there was no mass murder. And if you're wondering how so many people died then, there's an unknown but significant number of IDF-inflicted casualties in those 1139.
I'm not sure what's the definition of mass murder but advancing in a city/place and start killing indiscriminately sounds a lot like it.
Yes but I'm saying that didn't happen to my knowledge. From what we know so far about the attack, the IDF response was far from careful not to harm civilians, and in some cases chose to actively kill hostages to get the Hamas soldiers who captured them.
Israel so far hasn't done anything close to releasing the number of people who died to IDF fire, or just in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF, and until they do that they have no grounds to claim Hamas committed mass murder.
~ 1/3 military kills is definitely not "indiscriminately killing". These numbers change everything.
It's not a mass murder anymore. Oct7 was a justified targeted retaliation.
67% civilian casualties is a universally abhorrent figure, and shows a complete disregard for the value of innocent human lives.
Also, mass murder is generally defined as the killing of 3 or more persons at a time. Not exactly a high bar.
Is it? I mean civilians getting killed is bad no matter the number, and I'm not denying Hamas soldiers committed war crimes, but for example in Iraq the US coalition's percentage was 77%.
Because everyone is so happy that Iraq happened? Here, fixed:
Yeah I'm not saying 67% civilians is a good number, only that it's a normal number.
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. Unfortunately yes, 67% it isn’t particularly out of the ordinary. Perhaps I’m in a bit of a bubble, but I think/hope the vast majority of people consider this historical “normal” to be “abhorrent” these days. Such would be a positive change for society.
Perhaps I should also clarify that by “universal”, I don’t mean “everyone agrees”, but rather “regardless of the circumstances”. I included this to suggest that I think the civilian casualty rate in Palestine is also abhorrent, and I don’t think the October 7 attacks justify it in the slightest.
That's true. Normally I'd talk about not even close to all the civilian casualties are Hamas-inflicted, but mostly I wanted to point out that the popular Israeli narrative of "they entered our villages and indiscriminately killed our people in a brutal terrorist attack" is wrong even going by the 67% alone.
My man you better not start reading about American civilian casualty figures. And ESPECIALLY not about israel ones.
Also most israeli civilians are IDF reservists so they are in fact uncounted soldiers. The IDF just called up 300.000 "innocent civilians" to commit genocide in Gaza? lmao.
The best number is how little children were killed in compared to the total amount of people.
Let me guess, I would find more universally abhorrent figures? What exactly do you think “universally” means?
Where the fuck did you get that from?
Do you think Netanyahu just summoned 300.000 reservists out of thin air to commit genocide in Gaza with?
Those "innocent israeli civilians" are now magically members of the IDF.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Israel
In contrary, only a small percentage of Palestinians are part of Hamas and they have no conscription in Gaza.
I don’t follow your argument. So civilians that go through compulsory military service are not civilians? Korea, Vietnam, and Denmark have basically no civilian population? Or is it wartime conscription that you have a problem with? Is every American citizen an attack target because they theoretically could be conscripted as a response to the attack?
If they are IDF conscripts they're not civilians. Don't even dare to compare israeli colonists to Koreans.
If people went into Hamas military service and become a "Hamas reservist" then you wouldn't even doubt to call those people terrorists.
There are actual israelis that rejected IDF service and even people that advocates for peace that were killed which is very sad. But the majority are military.
Hah, why not? Their conscription system works the same way, if you haven’t noticed.
Justified retaliation, and an operation meant to get concessions out of Israel for Gazans. That's why they took the hostages.