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this post was submitted on 29 Dec 2023
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This war could have been over months ago or never even started if it weren't for NATO encroachment and sabotaging peace talks. I'm not defending Russia here I am pointing out reality.
All this is because the west would not let eastern Ukraine exercise any self determination after couping the government in 2014.
So here's the problem with peace talks. What would Russia agree to? They currently occupy a massive chunk of pre-2014 Ukraine, something like a quarter of the country. If Ukraine agrees to that, it sends a signal to the Russian government that invading Ukraine pays. Russia already made a go at installing a puppet government in the initial 2022 invasion. Why should Ukraine trust it not to take the time following a peace agreement to regroup and invade again? And besides that, Ukraine's never going to easily give up that much territory. Imagine that happening to your own country.
Why should the people in those territories that pled for help against the coup government that was slaughtering them for 8 years not be allowed self determination?
And also as an anarchist I don't believe in any legitimacy of either state, but if the people there feel safer under the protection of the Russian federation against the clearly Nazi captured Ukraine government, who am I to tell them what to do?
You talk of Russia trying to install a puppet government but the US SUCCESSFULLY installed a puppet government run by Nazis in 2014.
This is up there with “America elected a black president so racism is over.”
lefties should do this more
"there's white people in it, it literally can't be woke"
That doesn't even make sense. A Nazi government is all or nothing, the stench of racism lingers regardless of who is at the top.
Yet somehow new photos of Ukrainian troops wearing Nazi patches still pop up in the media on a daily basis.
It DOES make sense to peoples who actually know a bit about German history and 20th century European fascism.
Nazis hate Jewish people, that’s true. But they also gladly look the other way when a Jewish person happens to be useful to them.
Search Jewish Nazi collaborator and who the Nazis gave the title « honorary aryan » to, you’d be surprised.
by this standard not even nazi germany would be a nazi government to you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
all or nothing literally doesn't exist in nature
except in the brains of ultras
That's why you have to burn it out from the roots
People tell me the Nazis wanted to create a Greater German Reich, but Hitler was Austrian.
Oh dang we left the door open and a
wandered in. Poor little fella.
It may be helpful for you to consider this piece covering the long running problem with the far right that Ukraine has been dealing with. A cursory search would show you that this is a problem reputable news agencies have been documenting for years before the current war.
Liberal, proud of it. I'm aware of the problems Ukraine has had with its far-right. That doesn't make it a "Nazi government". Speaking of, are you aware of the problems that Russia has with its far right? Or is only a problem when it's Ukraine?
Okay sweet so you're aware of the role they're playing in the current government then. Not sure why you found that idea objectionable a minute ago but whatever.
And yes I'm aware, not a big Putler fan here. It's too bad the left is so weak in the former Soviet nations.
Personally I just hope a peace can be negotiated soon to save lives.
But if i do the reverse of this argument its whataboutism
A Jewish person being part of a Nazi government isn’t the oximoron you people are trying to paint it as.
Nazis are hypocrites who never hesitate to act contrary to their genocidal racist brain rot whenever it’s politically convenient for them to do so.
This includes the original Nazis.
If you weren’t aware, the German Nazi state had a title, so called « honorary aryan », which they gave to Nazi officials (or people useful to the Nazis in some way) of ethnicity that the Nazis would have otherwise sent to concentration camps, among the peoples who were granted the title were a number of Jews.
The title offered it’s recipient immunity to the racist policies and laws of the Nazis as well as sometimes outright favor treatment.
The title was also used to justify allying with the Japanese as well as, less famously, some middle eastern countries.
Side note but still relevant, the third reish supported Israel, since the Zionist goal of settling European Jews in Palestine aligned with the Nazi goal of riding Germany of Jews.
As for the claims about neonazis in the Ukrainian government, you just haven’t bothered to look have you?
It’s literally so easy to find outlets that couldn’t be less associated with the Russian government talking about the neo Nazi problem of Ukraine. Just search Nazi Ukraine and filter between 2014 and 2022 and you will find tons of them.
None of you NAFOs ever stop to consider the right of self-determination that belongs to the people who live in the eastern provinces.
It’s pretty clear that the people of Donbas, Crimea, etc, do not want to be ruled by this Ukrainian government.
A sustainable peace deal would be Ukraine agreeing to not cooperate or be supplied by NATO, agreeing to respect the rights of ethnic minorities, and giving up the provinces that do not want to be part of Ukraine.
Why is it worth sending tens or hundreds of thousands more to their deaths over that?
It’s an extremely reasonable peace and this is what they turned down at the start of the war when Boris Johnson derailed the initial peace effort. If the west wasn’t so war-thirsty then this war would have been over in a week, or wouldn’t have happened at all so cut out the pointless rhetoric about “we need to teach Putler a lesson” because you’re being blind to some basic facts about how this war could have and was attempted to be prevented when you recite that mantra.
Maybe if you listen to Russian propaganda only. I have both Russian and Ukrainian family and it really isn't that simple.
Your "peace" would be stripping any self determination of a sovereign country to appease the imperialist nuclear power on their border. Even after they have shown not to be trustworthy.
Ukraine might as well just surrender the entirety of their country instead of being a foreign ruled satellite state like Belarus.
Slava Ukraini
"The right to self-determination" so long as that self determination is becoming Russian territory and nothing more.
Let's not lie to ourselves that this is anything less than Russian Imperialism. It's Russian vs Western Imperialism all the way down.
Edit: both Crimea and Donbas are currently under Russian control. In the case of Crimea it's been almost 10 years now under Russian occupation. If you believe they will leave Russian control I would love to see why you believe so.
Russian soldiers supporting Russian agitators invaded they did not coup. The referendum for separation from Russia was in the 90s and voted for. Anything after that is nonsense.
The referendum was a joke. I saw one piece of Russian television coverage where they were "counting" the ballots. They were holding up every paper and just saying "yes" "yes" "yes" (in Russian) without even looking at it. Also, how do you hold a fair referendum when it's done at gun point? No one feels free to say no when the people conducting the poll could just open their ballot, see they voted no, and shoot them on the spot.
You mean the referendum just last year right. I meant the independence referendum of Ukraine after the collapse of the USSR. This one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum. Here the whole of Ukraine voted for secession from Russia.
The referendum Russia held a referendum for Crimea in 2014 that was pre-deteemined, this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum.
And then Russia held one more with pre-deteemined outcome for the Donbas in 2022: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_annexation_referendums_in_Russian-occupied_Ukraine
Gotcha, thanks for the correction.