150
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 22 Feb 2024
150 points (84.1% liked)
News
23284 readers
1813 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Jesus you're dumb (pun intended fully, though adding or leaving the comma was a tough decision.) And I say that, not because we disagree, but because of your complete misreading of that last bit you quote.
Democracy is a political system. Same as fascism (not that they are equal, but they are both political systems.) The reason the former is supposedly better, when paired with minority rights, is that it doesn't lead to things like genocide.
You're willing to throw away minority rights, and embrace genocide as an acceptable option for the facade of democracy that you love.
What you are supporting is not democracy. And you don't love democracy, because you're willing to throw the bits that separate democracy from mob rule out, to save the trappings of democracy. And you're willing to tolerate genocide, the bad thing that supposedly fascism leads to and democracy doesn't, to support, again, the trappings of democracy.
Secondly, I think that you are arguing in bad faith. I think you don't actually believe Trump will end in fascism (though, I actually somewhat do).
Tell me, have you started purchasing weapons? Stockpiling food, water, medical supplies, and ammo? If not, why not? Resistance is the proper response to fascism, no? Lest something like, oh I don't know, a genocide happens?
And this is all during a time where we're not actually locked into Biden as a candidate. You're all in for supporting Biden though he is actively participating in a genocide, and justifying it with 'Trump's worse!' when we are in the time period where we could choose someone else!
It's almost like you are arguing in bad faith and trying to prevent anyone else but Biden.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy.
I absolutely think a second Trump administration is more likely than not to end American democracy and usher in an age of fascism, possibly worldwide.
My guy, if fascism comes to America, I'm a mentally ill near-sighted cripple living significantly below the poverty line with an irregular income with few practical skills. If fascism comes to America, my options are pretty limited to "hide messages in my cane for la resistance" and "off myself".
And separately, prepper delusions aren't going to be much help.
I don't know how to address this level of delusion without going over a hundred years of American political history, which I suspect would be lost on you.
I love how you parade your ignorance. The Democratic candidate absolutely can be decided at the convention. All it would require is the current president engaging in an extremely unpopular genocide that IS going to cost him the election step down. You know, if he actually wanted to protect the country from Trump
So.... Just to be clear with your previous arguments about being perfectly okay with sacrificing people, you'd actually vote for a Democratic candidate that was better than Trump in all ways, except he advocated for euthanizing, in your words, cripples?
You expect Palestinians to vote for the man providing the weapons that are being used to kill their entire families. You'd make the same sacrifice you expect of others?
Tell that to the Italians. You keep using the word Fascism, without thinking through the ramifications of that word. It's not a prepper fantasy to say that if you believe the end of democracy is nigh, and fascism is coming, that you should start stockpiling weapons to try to prevent the concentration camps. Something you also don't seem to have a problem with, as long as they're not in America.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the last 200 years of political theory.
Yes, absolutely. Fuck, man, that's not even that far off. The US health care system as is is going to end me before long, and Biden isn't going to do a damn thing about it. I still don't want anyone else to be fucked who can be saved from being fucked.
Also, in this example, Trump should be advocating the torture and euthanization of cripples. Because Trump's track record and rhetoric are both considerably worse on the issue of Palestine and Israel.
If asked to choose between "More evil" and "Less", pick less. If asked to choose between having your entire family killed and having your brother killed, pick your brother. No one is saved by picking the greater evil. It's not a moral choice. It's not helpful. It's just a tantrum.
All of your other points are just rehashing the same arguments made before.
Sigh I can't disagree with you there. At all.
Especially with the way this administration and everyone seems to have forgotten Covid is still a mass disabling event.
You're right, they are. You'd sacrifice everything to prevent the end of democracy, without the recognition that to a significant enough portion of the population if genocide is on the table democracy already ended.
And you'd rather blame them, then literally the one man who could, in your arguments, save it. According to polling, basically anyone but Biden beats Trump. Fuck man, even the NYTimes with Nate Silver is starting to push the idea that Biden needs step down for the sake of the country.
No, that's really not how democracy works. It's not "Democracy unless it does something evil, then it's not democracy."
Democracy is not some good, pure, angelic ideal. It's ugly. It's asking people what they want. And oftentimes, people want shitty fucking things.
That's literally not true, and I can dig up plenty of polls which disprove that handily. More pertinently, no one who is running performs better than Biden, except "Unknown Generic Democrat Who Everyone Can Project Their Views Onto" which every minor candidate in the primary wants to convince everyone they are.
Nate Silver also pushes 'Both Sides'. He's a statistician, not a polisci specialist.
He's a good person to watch to get a feeling for what the people who would make the decision of who to run in the Democratic Convention are thinking. Since that is what matters, and not, you know, democracy.
I'm curious, do you play board games, and if you do, how do you feel about board games that contain "kingmaking" elements?
It's related, I promise.
Also, I apologize for the earlier insults and claims of bad faith. I strongly disagree with you, but you didn't deserve those. I'm sorry.
... is he? Nate Silver is a statistician without strong ties to the Democratic Party. Why would his opinions influence the decisionmakers in the DNC? Or reflect them?
Haven't played any board games in a long time, but I used to enjoy those kinds. I used to play In The Shadow Of The Emperor.
Nah, it's fine. I don't trust anyone who doesn't get heated about politics. It's one of the things in the world where you absolutely SHOULD be pissed.
There absolutely several public figures you can watch that reflect the views of the people that make the decisions.
Kingmaking is a thing that happens in games that involve more than two people where at the end game it becomes clear that only two people could potentially win, and the other players have to continue playing without the possibility to win, but end up with the power to make a choice on who of the two potential winners does in fact win.
Some people absolutely hate it, and feel that any decision made by one of the players that can't win that involves anything that isn't self-motivated as cheating.
Some people don't love it, but don't hate it, and have the view that the two people winning should take into account their own popularity with the decisions they make before the game devolved into only two potential winner, and that if they lose from people being mad at previous decisions that it is their own fault.
I've tried to give an unbiased description, though I obviously have an opinion.
Hopefully the parallel is obvious, too.