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Pope criticised for saying Ukraine should ‘raise white flag’ and end war with Russia
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 10 Mar 2024
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Russia isn't winning. Ukraine isn't losing.
Right now, it's a stalemate. The longer it goes on, the more likely Ukraine will lose. Russia has more people, and Ukraine can't strike deep into Russia.
What surprised me was that Russia seemed to have solved its ammunition problem. It would appear Russia is out-producing the West in artillery rounds.
I am pro-Ukrainian, but I don't want Americans on the ground in Ukraine. They must fight their own battle, but I support sending weapons. I wish we had some more weapons earlier before the Russians could entrench like they did. That is why the counter-offensive failed.
Russia will lose if its people get tired of this war. At some point, mothers will not want to send their children to die in a war they didn't want. People like to paint Russians as monsters, but most Russian people are decent people. Their government has fed them lies, and they thought they were the good guys. Most of the kids fighting over there think they are removing Nazis. Most of them are drafted and most likely don't even want to be there.
One thing that drives me nuts is how people think everything is so black and white. The world is very grey. Good kids on both sides are dying because Putin wants Ukraine.
If you have never read or watched All is Quiet on the Western Front, I think it accurately describes what is happening.
To what end? Is this stance worth losing a free nation to Russia if only supporting via arms isn't enough anymore?
I'm honestly curious why you feel this way.
For me, generally, I don't really enjoy the idea of sending our military into places like the Middle East; at best we're teetering on the line of actually being the aggressors in those conflicts, and at worst actually are just clearly at fault. But I kind of think, for once, the issue at hand in Ukraine is pretty cut and dry at this point. If push came to shove and they really desperately needed support from allies, I can't think of a more righteous use of our military than to defend Ukraine.
You shouldn't bother talking to Wintermute. They're a mod of lemm.ee's conservative community, and they never argue in good faith. Ever.
Duly noted, thanks.
It’s not our battle to fight. If you want to die for Ukraine, sign up. I have no desire to die for Ukraine. Most Americans don’t want to die for Ukraine. I’d resign my commission if called up for Ukraine.
Give them weapons and let them win their own fight.
Europe has an interest in defending Ukraine as they may be next but it’s of no interest of ours.
It's not just about Ukraine, that was clear two years ago. It's about European stability and alliances with other democracies. If Europe falls to authoritarians the US will be isolated and vulnerable.
Americans should support Ukraine out of self interest if nothing else.
Europe isn't going to fall. If Russia attacks a NATO nation, then we have an obligation to get involved.
That's presumably true now, although certainly a lot of uncertainty surrounds it. What about in 20 years after another couple decades or Kremlin propaganda on social media?
By then, Putin will be dead. Fingers crossed, Russia will get someone better in the next round.
Putin doesn't have twenty years if the rumors are true. Five at the most.
There are others just as bad and worse ready to replace Putin.
Would you expect that when a mob boss dies they replace him with a benevolent leader?
Interesting stance.
So, not to throw around too many hypotheticals, but it sounds like by your logic you also would have been opposed to our participation in World War II as well?
I'm just trying to parse your train of thought here.
We were attacked by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. We had no choice but to enter the war. Germany declared war on America after the attack.
People keep saying that the longer it goes on the more it favors Russia, but the Kremlin is the one with questionable support and disarray. Ukrainians are united, they want to defend themselves. Morale is in Ukraine's side.
Also, France is putting together a coalition to send troops. Who's going to go back the Kremlin up? Nobody... they have no friends, no good will, just rough agreements with other authoritarian governments.
It is a numbers game. Russia has more cannon fodder. The Russians didn't defeat germany by being better, they defeated Germany by throwing more people at the problem.
Who will back Russia? North Korea, Iran, and possibly China.
If we are distracted in Ukraine, North Korea can invade South Korea, Iran can stir the pot, and China will take Taiwan. All places where we have treaties to prevent just that from happening. Our military is not designed to fight on that many fronts at once.
Just because Russia has a larger population doesn't mean they can use it how they want. Ukrainians want to fight and defend their home and families, there's nothing like that in the Russian military.
The US could commit some forces to Ukraine without weakening their ability to defend Taiwan.
I agree that's the big picture though. Those authoritarian governments, with some support from BRICS and other dictatorships like Venezuela, are challenging the US-Euro hegemony.
They’ve been doing it for years how they want. Putin doesn’t like when people disagree. I’ve never seen so many people accidentally fall out of windows.
Until you see units refusing to go to war, my point stands.
Russia was literally forcing poorly equipped and even more poorly trained prisoners to rush at the enemy and absorb bullets.
As for units refusing to fight, we have seen second line Russians mowing down front line Russians trying to escape the battlefield. There have also been recent reports of Russian pilots sabotaging their own aircraft to keep themselves from flying dangerous missions. Of course there were also the Wagner troops that started marching on Moscow.
Why are you starting from an assumption that soldiers are somehow oblivious to the tragedies of war?
If your such a peacenic, then you should not be rewarding attempts at territorial acquisition by warfare. Every death in this mess can be laid at the feet of Putin and his supporters.
Then you should have known better. The fact that you had that experience and still made that ignorant statement is worse, not better.
There have been many people refusing to fight for the Kremlin. They have a blocking line that kills their soldiers if they turn around... that's their level or morale.
That is Russia being Russia. They did that in ww2.
Not sure how “historical” everything is but they showed that in enemy at the gates. That really was a shocking scene.
Yeah, I feel bad for the young men forced into the trenches.
We learned from WWII that appeasement doesn't work, and that democracies need to stand together to defend our freedom.
We also learned in ww2 that most countries are not thankful for us helping them in their wars. We have a large ocean between us and everyone else. I’m fine letting Europe solve European problems.
WWII propelled the US to it's current position as the only real superpower. The US benefited tremendously in some critical ways.
Also, the bigger of the oceans between the countries didn't stop Japan from destroying a huge portion of the US Navy. If they weren't proactive in responding, it could have been much, much worse. Japan could have solidified it's initial gains and used the territory and resources to grow even stronger, and the Nazis weren't far from having the bomb.
Isolationism is a nice ideal in some ways, but it's not viable anymore.
The Nazis were far from having the bomb. They talk about this in Oppenheimer.
If they only had to focus on the Easter front they would have had more resources and way more time. If the US sat on its hands it would only be a matter of time until they faced a much stronger Germany armed with nukes.
Well maybe the bunny is why they lost the Easter front?
Germany would have take. 10-20 years to have developed the bomb.
And then they would have nuked the US in the 60s 👍🏼
If you’re curious what their plane was. It was th America bomber and the v4. Their plan was to bomb us to submission.
NK invading SK would be roundly crushed in an afternoon by the carrier group posted there SPECIFICALLY to prevent that from happening, not to mention SK forces themselves.
Taiwan is in the middle of building up their forces again, we have forces in the region ready and able to assist (posted there, again, specifically to deter Chinese aggression), and we have ally forces across southeast Asia, including Vietnam, New Zealand, and Australia, who are willing and able to come help if needed.
Iran? Seriously? They're still having trouble keeping a lid on their own populace last I checked. And if they "stir the pot" by aiding Palestine or Yemen...well, Israel has been looking for a good reason to simply wipe Iran from the map for the last several decades.
I would like to see which military war game has ever shown that. I have never seen that at all. Can you please show the citation for that since it contradicts everything I have ever read on the topic.
We do not have a force large enough to fight China in the region while we are tied up in Ukraine. Vietnam is not going to war with China. New Zealand and Australia do not have a capable enough force to add much value. That is why they are asking the United States to build bases.
I agree that the world is not black and white, but I struggle with the "good kids on both sides".
"Good" is a tricky word just generally. I think you might have said there were "previously innocent" kids on both sides, but they're no longer so.
Yet another shade of grey, but I suspect that a lot of the kids doing the fighting have become depraved sadists.
If you are forced to do something, do you lose your innocence? It's why so many Russians have surrendered. It isn't a war they want to be in.
I have noticed that Russia used many people from the Far East during the war. These people don't have the same ties to Ukraine, and I think that was done on purpose. They seem more willing to fight since they don't have that shared culture or history with the Ukrainians.
If you are being told, you are going to fight Nazis and all the horrible things they have done, wouldn't you think you are the hero? I think they don't know the truth until they get to the front or surrender.
They may be innocent, but have lost their innocence.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/innocence
The institutionalised torture on the part of the Russians is designed to change the cognitive behaviour of their troops. Devaluing human life, trivialising violence, and establishing corporal punishment as an appropriate response to ideological differences.
In summary, Russian troops may have had some kind of childish innocence when they left home, but as a result of being forced to participate in depraved acts of violence, are probably no longer good boys.
I will never paint any group with a large brush. It’s dehumanizing to people. It’s how we justify killing others.
Mate, this conversation started by you saying "they're mostly good kids", which sounds fairly "large brush" to me.
The attrocities of war run much deeper than people dying. There are people that will carry psychological wounds for the rest of their lives. I think it's very important to acknowledge that, lest we forget.