Ok, I get it: the majority of users on Lemmy are browsing by "all", which puts a lot of content on their feeds that they are not interested in. I've already got in many arguments to try to explain this is kind of absurd and everyone would be better off if they went to curate the communities they are interested in. But I also understand that this feels a bit like saying "you are holding it wrong".
But can we at least agree to a guideline to not downvote things in communities you are not an active participant, or at least a subscriber? Using downvotes to express "I don't like this", "I don't care about this", or "I disagree with this" is harmful to the overall system. It's not just because you don't like a particular topic that you should vote it down, because it makes it harder for the people that do care about it to find the post.
Downvotes should be used as a way for us to collective filter out "bad" content, but what constitutes "bad" content is dependent on the context and values of the community. If you are not part of the community in question, then you are just using up/down votes as a way to amplify/silence the voice of majority/minority. By downvoting in communities you don't participate, you end up harming the potential of smaller communities to grow, and everyone's feed gets dominated only by the popular/lowest-common-denominator type of content.
Instead of downvoting, a better set of guidelines would be:
- If you don't care about the post, leave it alone.
- If you don't want to see content from a specific community, just block it.
- If the content is actual spam and/or not according to the rules of the community, report it.
Another thing: don't forget that votes are public. Lemmy UI has a very handy feature for moderators that shows everyone who upvotes/downvotes any post or comment. I'm tired of posting content to different communities and be met of a pour of non-subscribers on the downvote side. Yeah, I think we should make some improvements in the software side to have a more flexible rule system for scoring downvotes, but until such a thing does not exist, I'm seriously considering creating a "Clueless Downvoters Wall of Shame" community to mention every user that I see downvoting without a strong reason for it.
If I can see it and I view it as bad content it’s getting downvoted. Especially since such content usually is inflammatory political post from niche politic subs that have no problem espousing their politics in a “either you agree with us 100% or you're wrong/the enemy”. The rest of the time it’s weird fetish porn.
I browse by all because it’s a good way to see communities/content I wouldn’t otherwise see if I stuck to a curated community list. Not being part of the community doesn’t matter because I’m still seeing the content and still behaving consistent with using the downvote button to collectively filter it out.
I think a better option is these communities opting for the post not to get sent to all. Which won’t happen because a lot of previously mentioned post; the target isn’t the community who already likely agree with them, it’s everyone else. Better yet these communities could implement rules against post that are clearly inflammatory/flaming but then where would they grandstand?
Yeah that does suck but unfortunately people using downvote as a disagree button was a problem on reddit despite the guidelines against doing so. So the same people would likely ignore OPs suggested guideline too. Again, I wouldn’t consider that bad content and not in the criteria for my prior post. Though it does make me wonder if lemmy has implemented vote fuzzing if it’s getting downvotes that quickly? Most likely people are just dicks though. My previous partner was a vegan so I am unfortunately familiar with people getting offended by them just existing.
Fair, my point was not everyone downvoting things when they aren’t in a community is because they don’t like it. Good news, some instances have implemented “show upvotes only” so the displayed count is unaffected by downvotes. So you’ve already got a means/precedent to do so.
Sorry to hear that
Where are your mods? Mods can see obviously the comments but also downvotes and investigate repeat downvoters
Hm, that may be the instance owners only, I know I have a "View Votes" option, but I'm an admin. Would be a good thing for mods if they don't, I know my communities get a lot of trolling and I keep tabs on them.
Interesting, thanks for that and what you do to make the fediverse a success!
I really would like to migrate my communities to my own instance now that I understand how this all works. I think the big change of understanding is that no single instance is reddit replacement but that the communities are subreddit replacements and it would be better to have communities on small well maintained instances all federated with each other than having a massive instance like .world. I'm grateful for Ruud and his team for setting it all up and am not criticizing anyone, just how I understand the architecture to work best.
That's exactly what I thought too, that's why my instance is
poptalk.scrubbles.tech, on Reddit we had several communitise based around pop music and I figured rather than just spamming .world and .ml with them that it'd be better to have an instance around them (especially because of the trolling around these communities). Plus with federation then it's just easier, if X defeds from Y I'm out of the drama because I can fed/defed from anyone I want.i think anyone can query it, but it may not be in the interface.
From what I’ve been told it’s only query-able from the db and not from the API
Is this even an option? If it is, it must be fairly hidden. I've certainly never been prompted to not send a post to /all when creating a post.
I also don't think this is a good solution, as it would further stifle the growth of small communities.
I put some examples on another comment: I'm talking about the most inane, sports-related posts.
Also, if you think that your policing is going to help the other communities you think are "bad", then why not just block the posters or the whole community and solve the problem once and for all?
I don’t view inane content as bad. So that rules me out for that case.
Me using functionality of a website in its intended fashion isn’t “policing”. I usually do that afterwards if it’s bad enough but usually a sub has to have a pattern of doing it before I filter it. I know sport subs that were just match/race titled would cop downvotes on reddit, which again sounds like an issues better addressed by the community it’s being posted too.
Look, I'm upvoting you here because you are at least trying to have an open conversation about the post. I don't even necessarily agree with you, but I don't think your post is something that should be silenced or pushed away from view of other people.
On the other hand, you:
Do you see the problem here?
I appreciate the first part of your comment and the overall candour. However:
So you are downvoting because you disagree with something, or because you don't like how I phrased it.
You really don't see that is exactly (part of) the problem I am describing?
My point is: the votes on a post are not a poll. Downvoting the post does not work as a way to signal you object to the content. By downvoting my post, you are just trying to silence this conversation down and make it harder to reach other people that might be interested in it.
I mean if you want me to be specific then unfortunately I can do so. It’s more than I just disagree with you. It’s that I think your reasoning in the OP is very flawed and misrepresents the situation you are attempting to portray. Which felt dishonest initially but given your attempts to engage people who disagree I now assume misguided, sorry to say. Also I think people stating their views under the pretence of a question should be discouraged due to proximity behaviours like concern trolling (not implying that’s what you’ve been doing, just an example). Lastly, I super strongly oppose being shown content on a site like this that I can’t interact with. For your case it may make sense but I can super easily see it being abused by the cases in my example; where people can grandstand shitty politics(again as an example) but then the onus is on me for some reason to not engage with said content.
I'm a proposing a guideline, not a law. I don't want to forbid you from doing anything. I'm just saying "hey, Lemmy doesn't have any type of recommendation engine based on your voting history, so maybe consider the context of the community where the post is coming from before voting on whatever it is?"
If you think that you are gaining anything by voting "shitty politics", ok. You do you. But when there are people saying "our non-english community has a bunch of downvotes from english-speaking people", and you understand that this might be an issue, perhaps it would be a nice gesture if you voted this up to help this message reach others?
That’s fine and I’m saying that it is not a good idea to do so. I had figured my providing you with examples how intended voting behaviour can violate your proposed guideline would demonstrate that. Non English communities getting downvoted for… not being English is not intended or desired behaviour and deserves a more direct fix than a guideline.
No because that has nothing to do with why I downvoted the OP. Also, as I pointed out in an edit, my engagement with this post has likely driven it up in this specific instance anyway. Even if it doesn’t this went from being engaged by 2-3 people to a lot more real quick despite the OP largely neutral votes for the first hour, and now being -10 so clearly it doesn’t just drop the post off the face of the planet due to downvoting and probably other factors are considered.
Anyway, throughout this I’ve done my best to address every point you’ve brought up. Yet I’ve had multiple questions, some even asking for clarification, go ignored. So I think now is probably a good time for the old “agree to disagree”.
Let me go for one last attempt:
What would you say of "people downvoting posts about football and basketball because they don't care about it"? Or my posts that were on the emacs community, which has about 10 active users per month? Or some other niche TV show that someone wants to talk about and is trying to bootstrap the conversation?
The thing is, your argument is that "big communities can have bad content. I don't want to see that, therefore I should be able to downvote it". And your assumption was that my post was talking about this case. I replied to tell you that this is not the case, and that it's the smaller communities that are hurt the most by those doing drive-by downvoting. You seem to understand that we're are not talking about your case, but you still want to keep your downvote based on a flawed assumption.
Engagement, probably. But would you agree that there is still a lot of herd behavior in sites like this? The people that see this post being at -10 are primed to downvote it further. I'm not saying that you downvote is responsible for every other downvote, but I am saying that it certainly didn't make people more receptive to the idea I'm talking about.
Alright and then this can be it for me as I’m pretty sure we won’t reach a consensus.
I would say the edge cases for this don’t justify the blanket guideline and if they did it could be worded (and likely similarly ignored) like reddit did. I would also say situations like the language one can be implement with a UI fix. Plenty of small communities both here and on reddit grew despite being “niche” or even just not popular.
No. You don’t seem to understand that you’re providing guidelines that are incompatible with voting. You want to talk about edge cases in which your guideline can function and makes sense. I’m providing you far more likely and apparent cases where it doesn’t. Your guideline means someone would be breaking them even if downvoting content that breaks the rules of conduct I.e using it directly as intended. I’d consider guidelines for not downvoting stuff solely because you don’t like it for “reasons” before your guideline. Which I’d argue being a lot of former redditors, Lemmy largely inherited.
The idea of even a guideline against shielding communities from negative engagement while affording all the benefits of positive engagement isn’t worth the odd niche community post being spared a couple downvotes from people who don’t know how to use it. If individual communities want to only display upvotes, then goes nuts since that makes way more sense. I doubt I was the first but I’d guess most votes are from people who share my numerous strong views on it. Anyway, as I alluded to before if you can’t understand my position after this many paragraphs then we probably better call it a day. Have a good one.
What you call "edge cases" is all that I'm seeing. I don't browse by all and I don't go around chasing communities which I know I won't like. I find all the popular ones (news, technology, meme ones, etc) boring beyond belief.
There is already a "UI fix", which is to let people to determine which languages they accept. Thing is, most people don't use it.
The "browse by all" is a similar situation. The system was not designed for it. It's just because the Lemmy network is still too small that people are still using it like that. As soon as the network grows, most people will hopefully realize that it will be impossible to follow the firehose on any instance that is reasonably federated.
I think our misunderstanding is not about the values, it's just a matter of perspective. If you value the same type of content / interaction that of the average Redditor, then you will want different things from those that used to like Reddit because of its niche communities.
Perhaps it's because they think there are too many of them in the all feed?
This is a guess, I don't use the all feeds so I haven't seen any of them.
That's not the fault of the all feed. That's the fault of the user for either not subscribinng to communities they are interested in or not blocking communities they are disinterested in.
Either people browse by all because there is not enough content in the communities to follow, or there is already "too many" of the things that they don't want to follow on all, and they should start curating their feed by browsing their subscribed communities.
Which is it? You can not have it both ways.
You are trying to enforce rationality on inherently irrational humans. It's not going to work.
It's even worse, because I'm not enforcing anything. I can not enforce it. I am saying "The current way of doing things seems bad. How about trying something different?" and instead of trying to take a look, people are responding by doing exactly the bad things that they deny to exist.