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In this Ukrainian village, almost no men are left (www.washingtonpost.com)

submitted 8 months ago by naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[-] Liz@midwest.social 1 points 8 months ago

Lol, the Russian total includes people who were already in Russia before they invaded, but no other country does. Might be skewing the number there, a bit.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 8 months ago

Not really the gotcha you seem to think it is. The fact that lots of Ukrainians were happy living in Russia even before the war illustrates that Ukrainians weren't exactly anti-Russian.

[-] Liz@midwest.social 3 points 8 months ago

The most pro-Russian, pragmatic, and morally flexible Ukrainians would be the ones to be living in Russia even post-2014 invasion. I think most of the ordinary people were somewhat neutral before the invasions. Plus, you know, a population always contains a spectrum of opinions. The Eastern part of Ukraine was known to have a reasonable amount of pro-Russian people in it before 2014, that's part of how Putin justified invading.

I'm sure even now most Ukrainians aren't exactly anti-Russia anymore than Americans were anti-Afghanistan when we (needlessly) invaded to go after the Taliban. A vocal minority were rabid about killing them all, while most people were only interested in killing the actual terrorists, if they were in support of the invasion at all. Likewise, I'm sure most Ukrainians don't find Russia to be evil in general, only the people in power responsible for the invasions.

Finally, I must point out that while Russia is merely at the top of the list with muddy population numbers, not-Russia absolutely curb stomps yes-Russia.

The vast majority of people, when faced with an invasion, run away from the invaders, not towards them.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 months ago

Ukraine was already in a civil war past 2014, and most people in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian or have family ties to Russia. They do not see this as an invasion. A few slides from this lecture that Mearsheimer gave back in 2015 clearly show the dynamics in Ukraine. First, here's the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:

here's how the election in 2004 went:

this is the 2010 election:

As we can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:

So, the most likely scenario is that people from western Ukraine would've fled to Europe, while many in central and eastern Ukraine would've gone to Russia.

[-] Liz@midwest.social 3 points 8 months ago

Good data, I wasn't gonna bother digging it up, but I'm glad you did. I think it's important to remember that all realities are more mixed than we like to infer from plots and our preferred view. That is, while the geographic opinions are strong, neither the East nor the West of Ukraine are a monolith in their opinions.

I think you're being a bit generous with the claim that central Ukrainians would have favored Russia as a destination, especially considering the data you brought. I also think you're being generous with just how pro-Russia the East actually is, again considering the data you presented. I would also like to point out that the current front lines overlapping with public opinion tendencies is mostly a coincidence. Russia was intending to fully conquer Ukraine and failed. The current front line is only minimally influenced by the loyalty majority of the locals.

Still, I want to thank you for bringing the data. Good numbers are always better than no numbers.