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this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2024
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I don’t understand your point, it makes perfect sense for ancient cultures to have spaces considered sacred around them.
Are you casually suggesting that a culture that has lived in an area far longer than anyone else doesn’t have the right to consider parts of the landscape around them sacred?
Just because the land was stolen from indigenous cultures doesn’t mean they don’t still rightfully have a claim on it. At a bare minimum they should be able to demand preservation of the sacred places among the land stolen from them.
If you want to come after “people trying to make everything into sacred spaces” or something, sure, let’s talk about the way churches can completely dodge taxes and other laws that the rest of us have to adhere to (at least in the US), why waste your breath saying “c’mon” about a devastated indigenous population protecting a beautiful and highly unusual natural feature?
As a last point, do you honestly NOT understand how this place or Everest or Niagra Falls or the Giants Causeway are sacred places? You don’t have to subscribe to spirituality of that culture or even believe in god at all to understand when a place is sacred. Do you look at a place like Niagra and think “meh, just another place who cares”? Do you think the tallest mountain in the world should have so many tourists shuffling along to climb to the top that the mountain is inundated with trash?
When an indigenous culture identifies a place as sacred, those are the people that know that land better than anyone else and have passed down a culture of stories born out of that landscape, we should listen.
Too fucking bad. Religion is a mental illness.
So is our pathological disregard for destroying our most precious natural spaces, and I will take belief in a higher power as a mental illness over utter destruction of the only planet we have.
Maybe I was too subtle then. To spell it out more clearly: I don't think the majority of places that any ancient culture considers sacred should be blocked from the public. I can understand not wanting folks traipsing over burial mounds that were actually built by their ancestors, but if someone is going to say "No you can't go to Niagara falls!", because their 35th great grandpa thought the view was divinely inspired, that's just dumb.
It is the privilege of the oppressor to decide when history begins.
I'm paraphrasing a fictional character from a book, but the point stands.
You're saying that their history and beliefs don't matter because it infringes on a public good, but you leave out the context where these "public lands" were stolen from the indigenous people through a multigenerational campaign of genocide, and racial subjugation.
So... you find this meager apology and repatriation of some sacred lands to the wronged party here to be intolerable, and unjust?
What if their 34th, 33rd, 32nd, 31st, 30th, 29th, 28th, 27th, 26th, 25th, 24th, 23rd, 22nd, 21st, 20th, 19th, 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th, 11th, 10th, 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st great grandpa along with their father too all see a place as sacred to their culture?
Are you suggesting that because a place was declared sacred long ago that it has some kind of statute of limitations on being sacred that expires after a certain amount of time? Or, using the US an example, are you suggesting that because the native peoples and cultures that lived here before Europeans invaded were subject to a genocide and mass land theft that their claim to a place being sacred is now forfeit? What are you actually saying?
Your argument is nothing more than a hollow appeal to being willfully ignorant, and crucially you utterly fail to realize how vitally important indigenous cultures have been to preservation of precious natural spaces all over the world. Without indigenous people defending the lands they consider sacred there would be an unbelievable amount more of irreversible ecological destruction wrought by modern capitalism by this point and that is just simply a fact. If you don't care about the preservation of beautiful, natural spaces... well then I am damn happy there are indigenous land protectors out there who are devoted to pissing people like you off by refusing to let the cultural context of the landscape around them be erased by lazy people who can't be bothered to understand history or environmentalism.
Sure, if you want to consider native beliefs silly or dumb, whatever, I could care less but you are just factually wrong if you don't understand the immense material benefit to us all (and our children) from indigenous cultures defending the preservation of our most beautiful and rare natural landscapes.
They didn't build it anymore then 35 did, so I'm not understanding what counterpoint you're trying to put forth here. My point was fairly clear, and if you're only going to willfully misinterpret it, then I'm not sure you're someone I want to engage with.
Oh ok, so your argument is if indigenous peoples built Niagra Falls thennn they could claim it was sacred site to their culture.
....got it
That makes total sense, it is a commonly accepted fact among all major religions and cultures of the world that something can only be sacred if it was built by human hands. Forgot about that one!
Sacred implies supernaturality. Since that isn't actually a thing, nothing is sacred. It's as valid for one person to say they think something is not sacred as it is for someone to say they think it is.
At the end of the day, the argument should be that it is unique and should be preserved because of its uniqueness. That's a much more palatable and understandable position to take.
People in Congress refer to the US Capitol as a "Sacred" space. Yes, that's right. It has nothing to do with gods or supernatural things. It is referred to that way specifically because it is so important to the people.
How about you set aside your "palatability" of an idea and instead respect other's truth about it instead? Or is that too selfless for you?
You've decided that you have the right to impose your view over the views of the people who have traditionally lived in these places. You have decided that your view is the one that matters and damned those who have always occupied a space.
That is what it boils down to doesn’t it.
Sometimes you can get these fools mad enough by simply asking them to explain their logic that they just come right out and say it which is always funny. It’s like keeping this mask on of empathy and understanding for others is an uncomfortable burden that they just have to rip off when they get mad enough because they can’t take one more second of it.
These people always seem so self righteous and oddly relieved in the moment they finally rip their mask off and stop pretending to care or have empathy. It is like watching someone rip off a N95 in relief after they walk outside into an open space where they can safely take their mask off after being inside a crowded space for hours.
Irish person here: Giant's Causeway isn't a sacred place. It's a bunch of igneous rock. And, get this: nobody lives or ever lived on Everest. You know whose view is ruined by rubbish on Everest? The people paying to go there.
This is an utter waste of human energy.