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this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
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You can fuck ALL the way off with that bullshit. Libs like this are going to guarantee low turnout if they keep callously screaming shit like this to people who feel strongly about not being party to butchering children.
Instead of threatening and blaming voters you should be threatening and blaming the administration for alienating and disenfranchising millions of voters who would otherwise vote for him.
Yeah, and all of it is pretty on point, like it or not.
Go vote trump, or that brain worm guy, or don't vote at all. Trump will then win and when he's been in for a year, let's talk again and see how well your argument held up.
I'd love to do anything else than what I'm doing now but stakes are rather high, not only for Palestinians, not only for Americans.
You think Trump taking the white house is going to change that? The only difference enabling republicans is going to make is how much things are going to get worse.
Conservative voters aren't bound by the same morals. They don't abstain because their leaders are causing suffering.
No, which is why it's incredible to me that Biden would risk it by his hardline endorsement of Israeli war crimes in gaza.
Biden is fallible, end of story. The guy has a shit track record, signing onto all sorts of shit that has made this country worse. We could talk till we are blue in the face about how shitty the two party system is but you assholes (idealists) seem to only show up around election time then disappear after everyone has to eat the shit sandwich we end up with.
We've always been here, and we've always been the ones eating the shit sandwich. We just suddenly become relevant around election time when the libs are looking for someone to scapegoat for their failing electoral strategy.
Where were you in 2021 when I was shit talking Biden all over the internet and getting shut down at every turn? Where were you 2022 with the same result? 2023 I said fuck it and went to lemmy.
2024 all the sudden, "you know that Biden guy kinda sucks."
We could have primaried him you assholes.
Yeah we have been here the whole time, y’all just been ignoring us especially when the truths we were speaking were inconvenient for your strategies of shaping your world view purely off an averaging function of other people’s views around you rather than a serious, adult intellectual understanding of human rights, the military industrial complex, late stage capitalism and colonialism.
See here’s the thing, most of us “radical leftists” care so deeply about doing the right thing that we have kept supporting y’all because you are usually less violent in policy making than Republicans. In return, you insult us for not showing up for elections we show up for, you laugh at us for being weird and eccentric when you are drunk with your Republican friends even though we are by far the highest energy and most impactful grass roots organizers in your coalition, you call us betrayers of the cause when we make your shitty candidates deal with aspects of their policies that are extremely problematic, you talk about us to the general public like we are below the moral level of conservatives who our political ideologies are specifically founded on a basis that the hate within conservatism of all kinds is the root of violence and suffering.
It’s over, the fact that Biden won’t even budge about the genocide of Palestinians when the raw US poll numbers send a clear signal of support for Palestinians, and no especial attachment to Israel is very very very close to making the progressive coalition with the Democratic Party an extinct species. Y’all will yell at us on the TV about how this was our fault when your political strategies catastrophically fail, as you have always done, but the difference this time is we shut the TVs off a long time ago and are out organizing your shitty belief system out of power so it can’t hurt more people.
So it will be that it leftists will be the ones organizing the evacuation of the ship and getting people into life boats while y’all will have gone to get the captain to come down and make us stop violating the orderly rules of command on the ship, and then when you finally comprehend the sea about to swallow you up you will scream it was our fault the ship sunk (that y’all never let us captain for even a second even though you let your rightwing friends drive the ship all the time even when you were technically supposed to be on the helm).
How very self righteous you are. So willing to throw the country in turmoil for a cause you cannot even mitigate with all the tools of democracy at your disposal.
No, I don't believe anyone will be lining up behind you.
Edit:
And before you say, "this will be different." The question is how?
The conservatives don't just disappear because authoritarianism had taken root. The centrist don't suddenly feel inspired to leave behind convenience for a cause they will never see the benefits of.
Nope. You have a choice, and that is slow steady change of compromise and hard fought battles where the line sways ever further right; or you let go and the true molestation of your rights begins.
But who am I to be the person to let you in on the secrets of the ages. You can experience it yourself when you let the gaurd die and project 2025 goes live. Then you yourself also get to come to terms with the fact that your own morals and never compromising idealism is simply crushed under the weight of societies group think. Forgetting that once you had a hint of a voice that you could cast into the abyss but now you lay silent as it engulfs everything.
That is exactly what you will be yelling as the water is about to smash through the portholes of the ship and you will be UTTERLY convinced it was my fault lol.
If Biden wants my vote, he can call up Netanyahu and stop the genocide.
Period.
No, you idiot. You don't know a fucking thing about me. I will blame the conservatives because they are fucking malicious. You, you're just stupid. A useful idiot, if you will.
^this
Been here the whole time.
Where was your anti-biden movement? Protests? Anything?
You can't be so blind to see that this shit is all manufactured to get Trump into office.
Bibi gets to kill Palestinians
Trump gets cover while he sits in court for 94 criminal indictments
Putin is off the world stage while Ukraine is still under seige
W/e you're so morally superior but somehow can't see the forest through the trees.
Track record so shit his administration has been responsible for some of the biggest labor wins in the last half century. NLRB ruling anyone. Or them Banning non-compete agreements. Or maybe the fact that they just fucking rescheduled marijuana. Or all the debt relief they provided. Or the manufacturing that they are bringing back to the United states. That one still work in progress. Or the fact that if it wasn't for one of Biden's patented gas we may not have marriage equality at all still. None of it's perfect all of it could have been better. But in arguably all of them are wins.
It's easy to forget or not to even be aware of all this from all the well-funded bourgeoisie propaganda. And the accelerationist Virtue signaling LARPing leftists. Who don't have any suggestions Solutions or alternatives. Just hyperbolically attacking Biden and outright lying about him while down playing genocide. Putting things in a bit of perspective in the 2020 primaries. Biden was my second to last choice on the Democrat side. The only candidate I place below him was culty tulsy. He's far exceeded all my expectations. Granted they were exceedingly low. He hasn't shit his pants yet. Though he shit bed hard with regards to his Israel policy optics. It's only slightly less ridiculous than all the blame people are giving him for it though. Regardless of whether or not he expedited the weapons they would have still been sent to Israel. Congress is the one responsible for it. No matter how much people want him to cut funds going to Israel he can't. That's congress's job. But I don't see anyone putting pressure on Congress or Mike Johnson in that regard. Just a lot of fake concern about biden.
I agree with everything you said. I'm just thinking back to the primaries and if we look at Bidens long history he is responsible for some stupid shit. I won't go over it now, you probably already know. We even knew his stance on Isreal in 2020 and no one said shit until it became reality. Like, if Biden said, "I'm going to nuke the shit out of anyone who attacks the US" then you elect him and someone attacks the US guess what's going to happen. Oh, but then we know and we will just elect someone different next time. Guess what, next time the alternative wants to indiscriminately nuke everyone for no reason at all.
I digress. Biden is the consequence of our collective actions as a nation. These fools who keep falling for what ever divide and concur scheme the right hatches are just that. Fools.
Look, I'm not willing to write a book for you about how complex the US alliance is with Israel and the Middle east. I'm also not going to justify the current genocide that's happening at the hands of Israel.
But I will say that it's not as simple as telling Israel to stop. The idea that Biden is openly endorsing genocide is a political cudgel that bad actors use to frame the whole situation as if Biden has a magical stop button he just doesn't want to press.
The reality is that Israel can have this alliance with a number of first world countries and chooses to keep relations with the states, which in turn gives the US a political foothold in a region that is essentially completely hostile.
If not for that relationship being upheld, Israel would buy their weapons from China or Russia instead, and the genocide would continue without the US even having the ability to stymie it, like they are currently trying to do.
Biden isn't genocidal. He's doing what he can without destroying an alliance that keeps things from getting a lot worse. Which is a far cry from what Trump wants, which is for Israel to just nuke the strip and get it over with.
You don't need to, I already understand the US's interest in Israel. The problem is that none of the interests the US has in the ME are worth enabling a genocide against a colonized people, and I suspect that is exactly why nobody actually wants to spend the effort explaining it in defense of the US's diplomatic stance toward Israel. When it comes to international conflict and hostile action around the world, the democrats are just as bad or worse than their republican counterparts, and having that highlighted by making a case for keeping diplomatic ties with a nation conducting a genocide would make that abundantly clear.
That region is hostile toward the US and western alliance for very valid reasons.
Israel benefits greatly from US support and defense, so much so that any replacement wouldn't be the same (especially when both Russia and China are involved in other conflicts already). I don't think this line of reasoning is particularly convincing. But even then, there are also sanctions and the ICC to put pressure to put an end to the genocide, it isn't limited to defense aid.
Worse, he openly denies it's even happening even though he knows full well Israel has been conducting war crimes in Gaza. I don't think it's bad faith to accuse him of endorsement when he continues defending Israel when he knows full well they've been breaking international law (as well as butchering palestinian children), but I'll admit he hasn't said those words out loud.
You're not seriously suggesting that modern Republicans are going to handle this situation better? Aside from the very obvious point that they stated their intent about Israel just finishing them off, the only perspective that Republicans are better at foreign relations at all is from that of an isolationist, which is not what we are.
I didn't say we aren't at fault for that hostility, I meant to express that the middle east is hostile in general, to each other, particularly to Israel and especially to western nations.
It doesn't have to be the same to build relationships that would effectively seek to cut the US from the process altogether. Otherwise the US would have much more influence over situations like this and a magic stop button might actually exist.
This is simply not true and a manipulative way of framing the diplomacy that goes into maintaining relationships between nations. It's completely dishonest to decide that Biden is pro genocide because he won't say the word genocide. It took 7 years for the US to officially recognize the Chinese genocide, and they are our enemies. It took a year and a half for the US to file war crime charges against Russia, and we sent Ukraine several billion in aid during that period. And those are just recent examples. Genocides typically take decades to be recognized by the US regardless of what the relationship is between the countries.
The hard truth is that it's completely irrational to throw away any influence the US might have and burn those bridges for the singular purpose of a actioning a label that has no tangible effect by itself. It's essentially virtue signaling on a national level.
I think personally that Israel shouldn't see a red cent from the US until they at least cease hostility and come to the negotiation table, and demanding that probably won't be a deal breaker for our alliance. But I also don't have several decades of experience dealing with this exact conflict from the perspective of the US.
Basing your entire political opinion on a conceptual label that historically doesn't happen quickly is rash at the very least, and damaging on a national level when you consider what the alternative is.
Conservative voters don't care about this shit show. They will turn out to vote no matter what, and they will vote for war mongers that also actively want to degrade society in the US, and absolutely won't be recognizing the Palestinian genocide.
I'm saying the US has committed atrocities under both parties, and that by some metrics, democratic administrations have engaged in more brutal bombing campaigns than republican led administrations - important to remember Truman was the one who dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Republicans are certainly louder and more blusterous about it, but for any American that is ashamed of our history of violence and subterfuge abroad, they can take no more comfort from democratic leadership than republicans. (I would be wise to point out that is not any kind of endorsement). It isn't just the current conflict in Gaza or Ukraine. Frankly, to their credit, least republicans are transparent about their chauvinism. I could hardly say the same about Biden.
If Americans believe themselves to be arbitors of justice and democracy abroad, then allowing and materially supporting one of the most significant atrocities against Palestinians since the Nakba is a damning counterfactual to that image. If we don't maintain foreign relationships to prevent atrocities like the one we are now participating in (naive to ever think that is the case), then at some point you have to think there is some other morally-abhorrent (or at least morally-unconcerned) interest that should be re-evaluated anyway.
If we align ourselves with nations that brazenly commit genocide without fear of repurcussion, then what does that say about the US?
"Every man is like the company he is wont to keep." - Euripides
You shouldn't be so comfortable with that assumption of innocence.
All the more reason to be screaming at Democrats that they risk losing support if they maintain their diplomatic stances. They've grown too complacent in their support from leftists, and the chickens finally seem to be coming home to roost.
Does it make sense to lower the bar for republicans simply because they are honest about their brutality?
And if we sit out we lose the ability to influence the situation at all to parties who are comfortable just outright killing off entire peoples. Sticking our nose in the air and saying "We won't be part of it" is not the solution you might think it is.
I'm not making an assumption of innocence, I'm acknowledging that without experience my take on the subject should be considered that of a layman, just like any take that isn't born out of a complete picture of the situation. On the contrary to your accusation of a simplistic view that the US has pure intentions, what I'm saying is that short of a degree or several years experience dealing with this conflict first hand, any conclusions a person might jump to about this situation in the first place are going to be simple and incomplete.
I'm not insinuating we should trust the government to handle it in a way that doesn't perpetuate genocide, because they clearly aren't doing that. I'm just pointing out that the public zeitgeist on this conflict is based on knee jerk reactions to complex political moves.
The prime example of that being leftists angry at Biden for not pressing a "stop genocide button" that functionally doesn't exist.
I'm with you on that, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way out that doesn't rely on the democratic platform just magically changing. Is it worth handing over our democracy to a party that might well destroy it just to teach the other party a lesson?
No, but it doesn't increase the material harm they inflict, either.
Are we simply choosing which genocides we're comfortable with according to what material benefits we gain or lose from them? The US doesn't deserve that influence if that's true. I'm of the opinion that the US weilds outsized influence already, and the world would stand to benefit from a bit more multi-polarity.
There's nothing magic about changing any political platform, and it's certainly not about voting it into reality. It takes years of effort and organizing, and at times it requires a willingness to cause discomfort to those who gatekeep progress. I'm not telling anyone to abstain from voting, but Biden should know that's a distinct possibility should he stay on his current course. We'll continue pushing for BDS in the meantime, and hopefully Biden makes a choice so that it doesn't come down to who's taking office come January.
Well yes. That's because the method of decreasing the material harm done by republicans is to make sure they don't come to power in the first place. I understand that we have to hold democrats to a higher standard for that reason, but threatening them with putting republicans back in the driver's seat is creating more harm. It's not a great solution when the goal is ultimately less harm.
Are you suggesting that we as a nation are simply comfortable with genocide? Because enough of us aren't that there are protests and falling approval of democrats in general. The government also clearly isn't comfortable with the ridiculous position it puts them in of aiding both the genocidal nation and the people being killed. The US is trying to stop this without pulling rank and pissing Israel off. They're going so far as to halt shipments of ammunition as of yesterday. I don't think it's fair to say that the US is just doing nothing.
None of us are comfortable with genocide. But it also doesn't take a political savant to understand that just flipping the table and walking away isn't going to solve anything. The problem doesn't go away if we decide not to fund Israel. They will get the funding elsewhere from countries that want the US's seat at the table, and the only net change is that we lose that seat.
Where as it stands, there's a significant chance pressure from the US is going to put a stop to this conflict at some point.
The big question is how do you pressure a platform to change without threatening the level of destruction to our democracy that the other party advertises daily? And without the threat of losing the election, what reason does the democratic platform have to change?
The concept that we are demanding change and threatening the stability of our democracy to achieve that change seems counterintuitive considering that the change will come in the form of actual fascism, not democratic reform.
Hopefully. I think the dissonance that the "vote blue no matter who" people have is that the white house going red is too steep a price, and maybe not something we can recover from. Last time it happened we functionally lost our Supreme Court for the next several decades. Is teaching the democrats this lesson worth the profound structural degredation of the system?
That's not what anyone is suggesting. Stop covering from them at the UN and ICC, sanction officials and settlers in the west bank, implement BDS, publicly condemn their war crimes instead of deflecting and casting doubt on reporting. Nobody is suggesting we flip the table. It isn't just the US's support they risk losing, if the US starts putting pressure the other OECD nations will follow.
Yup.... so what's the disagreement again?
I don't think you do. There's a reason Marxists discuss revolutionary theory: some systems of power are so entrenched that it takes the threat of revolutionary violence to change them. For what it's worth, I don't think this particular issue requires revolutionary violence, but the longer democrats resist taking action the more apparent it becomes that more leverage is needed.
You might have missed the connection. Putting too much pressure on Israel is just going to see Israel cut ties and go elsewhere. If OECD countries begin threatening support, hostile nations will begin shopping to replace them.
It isn't just a function of whether the US decides to exit this conflict. By picking a fight with Israel, there is a distinct possibility that the US gets forcibly removed and replaced. Hence why making a bold and alienating move like condemnation is akin to flipping the table. It's like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Too much pressure is not something that is going to stabilize the situation. Again, that's why a magical stop button doesn't functionally exist. The right amount of pressure will make progress, and is currently doing that.
The problem isn't that the system needs to be replaced, because we've been due for that since Reagan. The problem is that the current active climate of "violent revolutionaries" are right wing fascists, not leftists. If this system topples, it won't be in favor of a better system. In fact, it's so baked into our political climate at this point that Republicans are campaigning on ruining the electoral process so they can sieze power.
The scales of who is willing to take power by force have been tipping to the right pretty hard lately. The thing that's stopping that from becoming reality is the very pretense of the system we are postulating the need to threaten to overthrow.
You don't see how that might be an issue?
I'm not advocating overthrowing the system, I'm pushing for a single change in international policy. I'm not an accelerationist, I don't want violent revolution to happen. All i'm pushing for at the moment is that democrats recognize the landscape has shifted underneath them and react to it, and there's certainly time left to do that.
This claim bothers me, because if it's true and the democrats know this, then they need to be taking more action against it than just running it as a campaign message. If i'm being honest; I think right-ring extremists are too larpy to be effective revolutionaries anyway. They're far more effective as brownshirt-type paramilitaries, aligned with the state and not against it. So creedance to the threat of republicans taking power again (to an extent), but they're already out and in force now against anti-war protestors, and the dems seem all too happy letting them run out in front of the police when it's convenient. I think liberals tend to miss-identify the threat of fascism within their own party, and I think it's definitely present now.
The two silver linings i see right now are:
While I don't know what happens come november, I know that we will be the most organized we've ever been for whatever comes after.
That's not quite what I'm getting at either. It's the threat of bringing dems out of power that, if we successfully carry through, has a real chance at degrading our democracy. Just like it did last time republicans took power.
But the threat of Republicans taking power is necessary to spur change from democrats. If we vote blue no matter what every single time, there won't be a platform change because democrats will do what they've been doing for the last two decades and assume the fear of Republicans is enough to get them elected.
So how do we spur democrats to change without giving republicans an open door to waltz in?
Democrats have lost their teeth. They won't actually do something about it because they're afraid of that Republicans will use whatever is done for retaliation, which they will.
As an aside, I live in Louisiana where the governor's seat turned red for the first time in 8 years. The blue governor was a good temper against the crazier laws our supermajority red congress tried passing.
Now that there's no obstacle, our red congress is revenge passing everything they can to take marginalized groups' rights away and now they're talking about rewriting the state constitution to allow for even more restrictive laws.
And they're doing it to spite democrats who've stopped them for almost a decade.
All this to say that democrats don't do enough where it matters because they have to keep a base happy that actually judges them on their actions. Republicans' conservative base eats up rage bait and cheers for suffering, so they always have the upper hand in that arena.
Oh absolutely. I mean, democrats are responding to nationwide protests by making it a form of hate speech. We're there.
I hope you're right about young people being willing to organize despite the system, because it's gonna be rough if the worst happens in November.
On the side, thanks for actually engaging me and discussing my thoughts. You could have been an asshole, and I just want to say I appreciate that you weren't.
It's a nice break away from the never ending trolling I seem to encounter. So thank you.
Same to you. Everytime I make a comment on .world I go in with my hair raised, this has been a nice change of pace.
I hope things turn out for the best.
Only an idiot would abstain or vote for Trump all because of this issue. Biden is a shit president, but he's worlds better than Trump has been, or could ever be.
This said, I agree that OP can fuck off with some of that language. The protests need to call Biden out. Bonus points for calling both candidates out, though. They've both chosen the wrong side of this.
Voters choose candidates for idiotic reasons all the time, it's poor campaign strategy to assume otherwise.
If you don’t do what I want to improve something I care about, I will bring about a worse outcome for the thing I care about.
Logic.
"I" won't be bringing any such worse outcome, Biden will be bringing it about himself by losing.
I'm talking about these people who would otherwise vote for him. The ones who will, by not voting for Biden, increase the changes of a worse outcome for something they claim to care about.
But hey, their conscience will be clear not having voted for Biden, right?
These people are either:
And Biden's will be clear for being able to blame them for his loss, I assume?
Blaming someone for an election loss has nothing to do with morals or conscience so I don't follow.
Conscience has something to do with guilt and blame, doesn't it? It at least deals with the attribution of harm, and my point is that attributing the 'increase in chances of harm' to protestors a bit misplaced, since it's Biden who has the agency to act against Israel, not the protestors.
The protestors are simply modeling the behavior they want to see from Biden: withhold support (or threaten to do so) from Israel until some concession is made. Either Israel will relent or we'll reduce their ability to continue their assault on Gaza.