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this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2024
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No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we've all been here. We're not dumb and we weren't born yesterday. Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It's because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
Conflating protestors with trump voters is just the cherry on top. This is what genocide denial looks like.
Single issue NON-voters are every bit as bad a Trump supporters when it comes to an election year.
This isn't prison reform.
It's a fucking genocide. That's not something you just hand waive.
Says the person that wasn’t even aware of any of it before last October. Don’t bother denying it. Your comment history didn’t mention shit about it until well after.
Also, I’ve seen first-hand how it has been explained to you time-and-again, how this works politically. How congress is pushing this. How it would be happening with or without the US. How Biden doesn’t call the shots there.
Yet you STILL- even with all of this explained to you, find a way to turn this into a push to stop people from voting.
I can call you what I truly believe you are here, but it’s hopefully implied within the facts of what you’re doing.
Oh that's right, you think Lemmy is the entire world and we've all been here for decades. But neither thing is true. And this is just a deflection from the fucking genocide. A version of no true Scotsman.
Riiiiight. I’ll tell you what. You go ahead and keep your vote. Lock it away safe so no boogeyman can take it from you…
And when November’s results come in, and you see that your withholding it did absolutely nothing at all to help anyone in Palestine, you go ahead and take a bow. Be proud that you stood tall and proudly- for absolutely nothing and quite possibly hurt a fuckton of people with your selfishness. Because you’re getting genocide whether you vote or not. And you’re getting genocide regardless of who you vote for. Because guess what, and pay attention this time-
• BIDEN DOESN’T CALL THE SHOTS IN ISRAEL.
• GENOCIDE WILL HAPPEN WITHOUT ANY SUPORT FROM THE US.
• CONGRESS HAS MORE TO DO WITH IT THAN BIDEN DOES.
You need to take this shit seriously. This isn’t a fucking joke. There are people in America that are going to suffer. And either you know this already and don’t care, or you simply don’t believe the hundreds of people that have been telling you this for MONTHS.
This isn’t something to take a stand on man. Democracy is at stake. And I don’t think you understand how bad it will be.
Biden controls the flow. He can declare Israel in violation of the Leahy Law and FSA right now. The fact that he held back the 2,000 lb bombs shows he knows this and has this power.
And people in America are already suffering. Everything you're afraid of (that Trump can reasonably accomplish) is already happening. The Democrats aren't stopping it.
ROFL… so may as well get Trump elected, right? That’s why you’re here, isn’t it?
As much as you accuse me of it, not really no.
I wonder if I will find “blue MAGA” in your comment history
I wonder if I will find support for any type of direct action on behalf of Palestine there, or if it begins and ends with not voting for Biden in November
Brb. I will check a few pages, I’m not planning on going through the whole thing
Edit: Wait, what the heck man, I was wrong; you seem for-real. No "blue MAGA" and there is this kind of stuff which seems pretty real and productive on behalf of Palestinian people. Now I'm just confused about your intent.
Okay, so to take the conversation in a serious direction, then:
This is, more than anything, what made me think you were a troll. You sound like a campaign commercial. Just say what you want to say, and leave the "We're not dumb, Joe Biden" while looking straight into the camera, out of it.
I think the idea that Biden is happy about Israel committing genocide, and wants them to continue, is immediately obviously not true. It seems clear that he supports Israel the country (which, he shouldn't) but not the genocide that they are currently doing. He's still not shipping them any more weapons since mid-May, as far as I know, and he's clearly pushing for a cease fire and humanitarian aid. Is that enough? Fuck no. He should have done all that in mid October, and he should be taking Netanyahu to the Hague. But it's also different from choosing to hit the gas on the genocide.
I think giving him shit for it in the present to try to make him stop the support he's still giving them (which is, it looks to me, what most of your comments on the issue are advocating for) sounds great. Up to and including threatening not to vote for him in November if he doesn't do X, Y, and Z.
I'm not sure if I would say this to him directly as like a "commitment" -- for exactly the reasons that you're saying -- but I plan to vote for him in November regardless, because of not wanting 10 Gazas all over the world with full-throated support from a second Trump administration. But I don't actually have any issue with what it looks like you're mostly saying, and I wouldn't really apply this meme to you even as pertains to you saying to give Biden resistance about Gaza. I think most of what the meme is targeted at is people who are saying they will never vote for Biden, and (various made up flaws unrelated to Gaza), and Trump's not that bad anyway, and who even cares about putting pressure on him in the present. That kind of thing seems bad. What you're saying as far as I can tell makes perfect sense to me.
Well I'm glad you at least seem to realize that. I'm overrun with people who just shove Trump in my face and demand that I either declare my vote for Biden or be labeled a trump supporter. But an electoral protest is useless if you're not otherwise willing to vote for the person, and you don't let them know you exist. But, crucially, you also have to be willing to refrain from voting for them.
As to his Israel policy, it's not as good as you think. He says stuff about Netanyahu but he is still sending ammunition for everything except the 500 and 2000 pound bombs. When Israel bombs the evacuation zones Biden, Sullivan, and Blinken are always out there right away with Israel's denial/excuse. Even when our own intelligence agencies rate the claims as "low confidence". Then when the claim is publicly debunked they just go quiet. They also haven't removed the special Leahy process Israel enjoys. Several former state department staffers have said any other country would have been cut off by The Leahy law and the FSA. Finally, even with Hamas at the table, accepting a framework, Biden always blames them for the deals falling through. They're doing it right now.
If there is no accountability for Israel then they have no reason to change what they're doing. And I have no reason to vote for someone whose shown me they could support that kind of violence. Especially combined with some of the most extreme border policies we've ever had. Which makes the entire premise that this is some kind of anti fascist coalition laughable. Trump may seize power, but you can vote fascism in as well and right now Biden isn't looking very anti fascist.
It's fuckin terrible. I didn't say it was good. I said I think he is unhappy that the Gaza "war" is happening at all. If you want to blame him for not taking the step from there to saying "and that's why fuck Israel, they won't get any more weapons and we support the ICC warrant" (ideally after climbing in a time machine so he can do it in October or November of last year), I can get behind you on that idea, too.
What's your take on my summary of the border situation here?
I didn't think you thought it was good, I just think it's worse than you think it is. His statements have been calculated to give an impression. His actions have not matched that impression.
I think your take on the border situation is wrong. It's certainly not unblocking any time soon but an illegal and cruel EO is not the answer. This would be a great time for voter outreach and education. It's even campaign season.
What would be the answer, to you? I'm genuinely asking.
Voter outreach. The issue is obviously deadlocked right now so go back to the people. Build pressure for a proper reform bill. And when the GOP says no it goes on the pile of nice things we can't have because of the GOP. Then whenever a red state complains about immigration it gets brought out.
The real problem is that immigration is solved by doing the things big donors absolutely do not want. Giving immigrants work authorization and a displaced person camp means they have rights suddenly and you can't just abuse them until you call ICE the next time.
Working in good faith on the problems of the Central American countries would mean our corporations wouldn't be able to hire mercenaries down there anymore. (Looking at Chiquita)
And we really need to figure it out because when climate change kicks off we're going to look back at the current situation like a day at the playground.
That wasn’t quite my question - I was asking what Biden specifically in his present position should do (including “nothing” as a possible answer)
He can't do voter outreach and education? FDR did it.
What should be in the reform bill he is doing voter outreach on behalf of?
Yeah he's not though, because there isn't one in "palestine"
Which one? Sudan? Nigeria? China?
the one that the 51st american state is committing.
Puerto Rico is committing a genocide?
LoL no you are thinking of Guam, Puerto Rico is 52 unless you accept that DC is a state then it's 53. Then Samoa, then U.S. virgin islands...
So that makes Israel America's 55th? state?
Yeah… most of you are. Because runners that aren’t- aren’t screaming at the top of their lungs to not vote.
Only an absolute idiot would think that not voting will bring change. And I’d like to imagine that TRUE leftists aren’t idiots.
You want to clarify where Israel's ongoing genocide is defended or deflected from?