voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
Well said sir
Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
Not exactly. We went, in that time, from "great society" and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that's brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today's America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we're only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn't a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
(ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
I have no particular love for either of the Clintons but I'm still sad about Gore. Between the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, real action on climate change before it was too late, and the underregulation that led to the 2008 financial crash, the whole fuckin world would be different if he'd been allowed into office after he won the election.
Just think how much further left we'd be if Hillary won. Instead Trump won and the Overton window went off the cliff. How'd those protest no-votes go? *They ended up being counter-productive.
As for Bill Clinton, he learned from Carter being voted out and Reagan and Bush winning. He played the position he had to play.
The greatest expansion of Rights in American history came in a period where Democrats had a very strong string of victories. From FDR to LBJ Democrats dominated in this country, it was also the period in which basically everything we consider the Cornerstone of our nation was developed. It's also the period that the conservatives are trying to roll back as hard as humanly possible.
And during those four years they only had a super majority that could overcome the GOPs automatic use of the filibuster for a very short period of time when Independents caucused with the Dems, and even then there were some holdouts that watered down the best parts of what they were able to get through.
It didn't work in 1968. It didn't work in 1980. It didn't work in 1984. It didn't work in 1988. It didn't work in 2000. It didn't work in 2016. It didn't work in 2020....
Yeah because they're an idiot. If you actually want to get leftists in power, the answer is to start sharpening your knives. Replace Dems with leftists in your local elections. Organize for ranked choice voting and electoral reform. Work alongside your local labor unions to generate support for pro-labor, non-establishment politicians for Senators and House Representatives.
We can keep the Democrats in power until the time comes, but there's no hope for the party. It's far more likely for the Dems to cannibalize the Republican party after the MAGA movement explodes than for them to ever reform into a serious leftist party. If we want one, we'll have to make it ourselves.
The Left needs to study up on what the Moral Majority did back in the 1970s.
Both Parties have local clubhouses where they decide local matters; who is going to run for dog catcher and should we put a STOP sign on Main Street? If the normal turnout for a meeting was twenty people, the Moral Majority would show up with 50. It didn't cost them an arm and a leg, and they quietly stole power from big shots like Nelson Rockefeller.
start actually showing up where it will make a difference
Bingo. If you've made it this far in the thread and are wondering what you, one person behind a keyboard, can do, it's to start going to your local town hall meetings, and to start bringing friends. The first thing you'll notice is that basically no-one is there. If you suddenly show up as a consistent group of 10-15, local politicians will start taking you seriously.
If you don't have any friends, going to local protests are a great way to make them! There's still a few going on in solidarity with Palestine I think, but there'll always be more!
"Pro-democracy conservatives" in an antifascist coalition, y'all crack me up sometimes.
Some Republican Secretaries of State, Mike Pence, military leaders, conservatives in the Justice Department, and similar not-real-inspiring-politically people were some of the most important ones who put the brakes on Trump's previous attempt at a for-real fascist takeover. Without them, I think there is an excellent chance that it would have worked, and we'd be currently living in a society which doesn't have functioning elections or protections for political speech in media or on the internet.
I do understand that our elections and our media right now are not fully free. But that doesn't mean every point on that spectrum is the same. People on the left sometimes like to say Reagan or Bush or Trump 1 or Obama or Biden are so oppressive that it all might as well be fascism, but people who lived through real totalitarian rule further down on the spectrum would tell you that no, no it is certainly not.
Check out The Bulwark. It's basically a bunch of people who still consider themselves conservatives but exclusively vote Democrat because Republicans are insane and/or fascists.
And mad props to them for going against the cult. They're still moist likely regressive assholes, but they're principled regressive assholes and I can respect that.
Eh. This describes my Dad, I guess. Life time "fiscal conservative" that voted Republican his entire life except 2016 and on. Possibly 2008 too, he was outraged at Palin and the Tea Party.
They exist.
But he was never a republican for the social conservatism side of things. Never watched Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or any of that garbage. And votes blue down ticket too because he accepts that the entire party is corrupted now.
I've never voted in an election where I wasn't voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don't get nice things in America.
The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *
I'm looking at my calendar and wondering, it's not November right? It's still June, or isn't it? As an outsider, why are American leftists basically being called fascist enablers when they are only protesting and demanding reasonable, better policies? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Now they are demonized for it, at the same time I've seen nothing here last week when Biden enacted a right wing immigration law with an executive order. So it's okay to try to sway republicans, even though the GOP has racist views on lock as their USP.
It's like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it's totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
I'm far left. Anti capitalist. Anti authoritarian. But, there are groups on the left or masking of leftists very heavily pushing people not to vote for joe biden in the upcoming elections. They, whether real leftists or not, are not just protesting. I don't love joe biden. I didn't even vote for him the first time. I knew he would win my state and voted 3rd party. But mass rhetoric to protest vote for no one or someone else risks leaving us with donald trump.
what the fuck are you on
He does nothing but post negative about leftists. This is just who he is. A sheepdog alienating everyone to the left of him and herding others to the right.
I've tried to get them to understand that maybe their strategy just isn't viable if their goal is to get more people to vote for Biden, as they instead serve as a giant wedge, but they basically said they didn't care and leftist votes don't matter.
They have actively contributed to Lemmy.world's Red Scare, where even Anarchists are called Tankies.
Given the attitudes on this platform I'm bracing for the downvotes, but I genuinely wish you and others like you would stop trying to (nearly daily) insult/shame others into voting the way you want. You should watch this video by Bernie Sanders about winning votes for Biden on merit and logic. Note that he never uses insults, and the reasoned arguments Sanders has been making for months convinced me to stop telling people to vote 3rd party months ago. I'm now willing to ask people to vote Biden in spite of my reservations - not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that incessantly attacking everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive. I won't speak for others but I was won over by calm reason, not being called slurs every time I opened Lemmy.
No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
Not in picture: the majority of Democrats that support a cease fire.
Biden supports a ceasefire. The only people resisting a ceasefire are Netanyahu and the Republican party.
You better watch out PugJesus, I just got accused of being a bot in another thread for having this point of view 😂
I'm used to tankie whinging about how they can't support fascist regimes without being called out.
I hit em with the “maybe your views are just unpopular?” and have yet to see a response…
If the 'anti-trump coalition' consists of people voting entirely to avoid a trump presidency, why does the coalition building only consist of capitulation to the views of the anti-trump republicans
"Antifascist" holy shit that's funny.
Lol, dems and "Antifascist coalitions"
Absolutely. Remember everyone: some of the people wearing your colors are only pretending to be on your side.
Don’t evaluate sources for loyalty; evaluate ideas for validity.
Know your own values, and get good at thinking critically. Then double check everything that you think, and that others are saying, to find out if there are any bugs or malicious code, changing outcomes away from what it should be per your values.
I'm not from the USA. We have many Parties here, so maybe I'm out of touch a little.
But is it really that bad to vote some small 3rd Party? I think it's a big problem for Democracy if you only look on the two big parties. Yes it's completely unrealistic that a 3rd party gets enough votes to be the Government, but why be part of this Problem? And isn't a Vote for some small party STILL better than a vote for Trumps Party? Where is the difference to that my 0,001% goes to the Democratic Party or a smaller party? It's still 0,001% less for Trump.
Also, I just checked this Wikipedia Article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_United_States And based on this list, some small parties actually have some seats and even have some mayors somewhere. So it seems like the vote is not 100% wasted.
Isn't it better for Democracy to look on ALL parties?
The Party in Germany I'm a member of sadly lost their Seat in the European Parliament this election, but this will not be a reason to just give up. Even with only one single seat, the party actually did much Important work. So I will not move to a bigger party now. I will talk to many people and advertise my party and try to get us back on a seat next time.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing something in USA Politics. I don't know much about your system. Could someone explain to me why it's such a hated move to vote a 3rd Party in the USA? From my European viewpoint, I don't see why not. I'm here to understand.
At scale the US system has too many layers of abstraction. We are not a direct democracy once you pass the small scale elections you mentioned. Those abstractions combined with first around the goalpost winning makes it so statistically the chance of third party success rounds to 0. So if you vote 3rd party in a major election when you otherwise would have voted Biden then you helped Trump because that 3rd party vote's only impact on the election was to reduce Biden's total by 1.
The only chance 3rd party has of gaining ground is if we switched to ranked choice voting as this would allow people to realistically gauge and react to support for 3rd parties without aiding the major party they dislike in the meantime.
Also need to ditch the Electoral College as it is the worst of our voting abstractions that is only amplified by gerrymandering.
The way you put it, I would hardly even call it a democracy. Or let me rephrase that. It's a democracy but a really broken one.
So the system would have to be fixed. And of course that won't happen because it would damage the parties that would need to fix it. Yea... really complicated.
But at least locally, it should be fine to vote for 3rd parties. I see many seats there. You should try to get the choice in the places you can. (as long as the small parties aren't even worse, of course)
And at every other time of the political cycle they will be on and on about how they're the only ones who really take the threat of fascism in this country seriously.
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