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Israel ready for ‘all-out war’ in Lebanon
(www.aljazeera.com)
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this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2024
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You're acting ignorant with the last sentence. There is no line between democracies and dictatorships. There is a long way until we could call Israel a dictatorship. When they will marsh the streets after some next elections get cancelled (unconstitutionally), and huge numbers get arrested, then we'll talk.
Would you prefer Autocracy then?
What exactly would you call a government where a single person acts as a unitary executive and gets everything they want and when people go against him, he just gets rid of them?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/17/benjamin-netanyahu-dissolves-israel-war-cabinet
I'd call that a dictatorship. What would you call it?
You don't need to ask me how I prefer calling a regime in a country in order to make it look bad. I don't have such preferences. There are people suffering in any country including yours, and their lives could get better with new elections. This is not an extraordinary situation.
I don't need to invent words for Israel. I would call it bad when I see it does terrible things to its own people. This is not a case for now and from what I know, there is no imminent conflict/crisis between government and citizens. That's aside from the war conflict/intervention situation of course. I would also appreciate hamas if they did a better job at governing gaza, but instead they bombed it with inaccurate missiles as a side effect of trying to harm Israel. This is a huge difference - I call the Palestinian regime bad because of that, and suggest they could manage it much better. When compared to Israel, I don't see much obvious room for improvement (I don't see a lot of Israeli people suffering) and thus I can't call it bad.
"Bad" is not a form of government. You claim it isn't a dictatorship. What form of government is it? Don't change the subject.
You're changing the subject by trying to describe it with unsuitable words. Your actual thought is that it's bad and should be changed, but you first tried calling it a dictatorship, then autocracy. People of Israel aren't living in such conditions yet. Better just get back to "doing war is bad" stance.
https://learn.rumie.org/jR/bytes/what-s-the-difference-between-autocracy-and-dictatorship/
Now... if it is neither an autocracy nor a dictatorship, what is Israel's form of government. Surely you aren't trying to suggest that Israel has no government.
As I said before, there is no line. You can't assume some regime fell into the other side after a short time. These things develop for years. Or could you try to classify the US regime? Surely it's not a democracy when people can only choose between 2.
At this point it's clear that the reason you can't tell me what form of government Israel has is because you know it's a dictatorship and you can't think of a way to admit that while also maintaining that it isn't one.
Also, the U.S. is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Classified and done.
As you wish, I don't care. The original comment claimed it to be a dictatorship, it's up to them to provide evidence. They failed.
You not accepting the evidence does not mean it was not provided.
You not being able to say what form of government Israel is if it is not a dictatorship is good enough evidence for me that you have no argument against the claim.
Either it is a dictatorship or it has a different form of government. You can't say what it is. Your challenge on defining the American government (again, constitutional republic) as if that wasn't possible was quite amusing though.
Forms of government is something my 14-year-old daughter learned in school last semester, so I would think you would be old enough to have been taught what they were. Apparently not.
Your thinking what you provided is an evidence doesn't mean it was it. But by all means, go on.
Go on with what? You cannot tell me the type of government Israel has. I answered your challenge about the U.S. government easily.
All you are telling me is you lack a middle schooler's understanding of government.
I don't want to get dragged into a petty squabble but it must be said that there's an enormous gulf between having an in-depth, contextual understanding of something as complex as governance/governmental structures; and simply being able to repeat a few top-line sound bites that encompass the general idea of any given subject taught to kids over a few Thursday afternoons.
An average kid won't have any meaningful interest in the majority of subjects they are introduced to at school. They might find it interesting in the moment, but they're not going to win many followers if asked to debate on anything with such a shallow introduction to a subject.
My knowledge of Israeli politics is not sufficient to join either side of your disagreement on this thread, though I have heard a couple of conflicting political commentators in agreement that the current state of affairs is not the result of a Netanyahu policy which is in isolation/contrary to the entirety of the rest of Israeli government.
I just found the comment about high school kids understanding the subject to be a bit triggering and unhelpful.
It's nigh on impossible to know what media and/or commentators to believe. It is an unnerving time. The Hezbollah situation isn't something that has just come out of nowhere, and the way it's generally communicated by a lot of media outlets is unhelpful in it's failure to scratch the surface, leaving readers in a state of helpless panic and fear. There's a lot of very well informed opinion on the subject out there and it wouldn't take much for journalists to at least link to some of it; be it books, past journalism, and commentators from all sides actually directly involved in the conflict. Instead we mainly get disjointed daily updates fanning the fear among readers who don't have enough of an understanding.
We all spend far too much of our spare time as individuals, picking our phones up and doomscrolling. Whether the subject is climate, farming, the economy, health, sustainability, local/national governance, activism, education, neo-liberalism, you name it; rather than reacting to media headlines posted in our echo chambers on a daily basis, proclaiming our despair in disjointed comments sections that get buried every 24 hours: we need to find new ways to engage.
To truly understand a given situation it can take a lifetime of learning about it, yet we bicker between ourselves like we're the leading authority on the subject. We have the technology available to us, to unite en masse in support of positive changes but we have no leaders. We're bombarded with information and we all have our three-month-old, one-sided take on what's going on. There's got to be a better way.
I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that I'm not the only one who works so much of my time, that by the time I've eaten, slept and done basic chores; I've got maybe 1-2 hours a day after dark, plus Saturdays to "be myself", or in my case; spend time with my wife. We don't have kids and if we did, I can't imagine how they would fit into my existing schedule. I feel worked to the bone, for little/no benefit to my own wellbeing. Being myself for an hour before bed each day is hardly what I would call having the freedom to disengage from the rat race and be productive for my own/my community's gain.
It seems obvious to me that the way we live is the problem. There seems to be some very obvious solutions worth trying but we have no hope. We have our half an hour a day to comment online and that's it.
And we're the ones who have an opinion... There are hundreds of millions of people who the system have failed, and have no nourishment to their being at all, be that physical, mental, cultural, spiritual. There are entire blocks of society who just consume without conscience, completely disengaged from anything of merit. How do you tackle that?
We need to make small positive steps to communicate more thoughtfully, be less selfish; and consider ways that we can cooperate more both online and irl; as we're not getting any help from our leaders any time soon.
Not helping. Apartheid or not, my criteria is how well government cares about its citizens, and that term ignores that. Political gain or not, my stance is that it started with October 7th attack, which was not prepared by current Israeli government, therefore it's correct to blame another party. Protesters doing their thing is good for everyone, we should start worrying when they are unable to do that anymore due to oppressive laws, police raids etc.
Sure, if you ignore the discrimination and inequality of the millions of Palestinian citizens of Israel, on top of the millions within the Occupied Territories that have been under Israeli Military Control since 1967. If you ignore all of that, then your criteria of 'how well government cares about its citizens' could make sense.
Your criteria doesn't make sense, and ignores the reality of Apartheid. If you consider a democracy based on equality, liberty and freedom of expression, and also consider all aspects of the Apartheid Regime; Israel falls tremendously short of being a Democracy.
You didn't see the comment tree? It's about Netanyahu. Are you going to pretend he is responsible for all of that?
When we're talking about whether or not some person is a dictator - yes, its irrelevant. Dictatorship is about having a power against the will of too many citizens, also silencing them, jailing them, killing them etc.
Don't need that. There are not 2 types of government. It may not be a democracy, but it's similarly difficult to qualify as a dictatorship.
Palestinian citizens are about 20% of Israeli population. Black people are about 14% of the US population. Both of them hold legal citizenships and rights but often face disparities. Does that make the US an apartheid by your logic?
Considering he's part of the Likud party which was created out of the Lehi and Irgun, it's certainly relevant.
That is the reality for Palestinians, yes
Again, you are conveniently ignoring the Palestinians within the Occupied Territories. And yes, America during Chattel Slavery, where Black people did not have citizenship, was certainly a form of Apartheid.
Whatever you prefer calling occupied territories, I don't consider a subject for dictatorship. Dictatorship is something I consider an internal state of the country, so no other territories should affect it. An aggression on neighbouring territories can be a result of dictatorship but never a reason for it. So whatever is going on with "occupied" territories is not a subject for this discussion for me.
This is not a normal temporary occupation. The West Bank and Gaza as occupied territories were created by the Ethnic Cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian people from the Zionist Campaign of Plan Dalet starting in 1947. The West Bank, Gaza, and the rest of Israel are all Historic Palestine. The permanent occupation / apartheid is a direct result of Settler Colonialism.
These are not 'neighboring territories' like France and Spain would be. Would you also ignore the bantustans of Apartheid South Africa when determining if that government was a dictatorship or not? Or the Native American reservations of America during Manifest Destiny?
Occupation is never normal. I'm not ignoring it. Just saying that dictatorship is a different thing that is hardly related to it this case and otherwise too. Also my point is that it just looks increasingly stupid when people ar first blamed Israel for being bloodthirsty killers and then switched to "oh that's all because Netanyahu wants to remain in power", as if it would immediately cease if Netanyahu disappears.
Maybe not explicitly a Dictatorship, but practically all parties of Israel, from Labor to Likud, have all been pro-apartheid since their origins as the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi. I certainly agree that Netanyahu is not the cause of Israel engaging in Ethnic Cleansing. Forced Transfer has been core to Zionism since the late 1800's. Even Netanyahu's only substantial opposition, Benny Gantz, is just as bloodthirsty. My point is that an Apartheid State is incompatible with Democracy.
My point is that dictatorship mainly affects real citizens, making their lives worse. Israel cares about its citizens adequately from what I see. There are no grave political crisis or tons of citizens suffering from inadequate laws or false accusations. Israeli people are fine. There is only Gaza and Palestinians Israel is dealing with, and I leave that out of context because those are outside of political regime definition for me.
Then you fail to understand the reality of the Apartheid Regime
Like I said, apartheid part is irrelevant in a "dictatorship or not" definition. If most Israeli people don't feel themselves being under a dictatorship then it is not a dictatorship. What the regime does towards Palestine and its citizens is another thing. In fact, if you insist on calling it a dictatorship based on what happens to Palestine and Palestinians I'd feel as if you would assume there is no Palestine outside of Israel.