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New German citizens required to affirm Israel's right to exist
(www.middleeasteye.net)
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this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2024
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Maintaining that an Apartheid state has the right to keep being an Apartheid state is very Nazi-like.
This is not agreeing that Israel is allowed to continue committing genocide. This is just saying that country is allowed to exist as a country. Or do you think that once a country commits a horrific act that they should no longer be allowed to exist?
I'm more interested in the inverse: when does colonizing an already-inhabited area turn into a recognized country? Because Israel was created by a stroke of the pen out of Palestinian land. Or is it purely "might makes right"?
Oh. Could you educate us more about this? Why exactly was it created with the stroke of a pen and when? And by whom? By the mighty Jewish people?
not OP, but, google Mandatory Palestine
No, sorry.
If you're not willing to learn, then don't ask people to educate you!
I wanted him to write out his opinions. Since COVID I’m done with people who just throwing a link to me and say educate yourself.
it's not their opinion... it's facts.
So, you rather accept someone else's opinion, instead of building your own one? That's how the Nazi-regime started in the first place.
No, I just don’t like to get some bullshit link with the words educate yourself.
I can send you some books to your home address, if you prefer it that way?
No, but please give me the titles with authors.
The great sea - A human history of the Mediterranean by david abulafia.
It's not Palestine/Israel specific, but a "broad" history about the Mediterranean .
Honestly, thanks. I make sure to check this one out. I like reading about history.
I recommend you the last book I have read: the world of yesterday by Stefan Zweig.
Oh, I've read "schachnovelle" from him, back in school, which brought me into chess 😅
the sea is a very long book... I'm just half way through, although I'm not much of a reader.
I want to read the schachnovelle at a later point! Looking forward to it.
If you’re interested in the Mediterranean, I recommend Constantinople by Theophile Gautier. It’s about his visit to Istanbul in the 19. century. I think the print version is hard to come by in English, but the ebook is just a few cents.
lol... who the fuck downvotes this comment? it's just regular convo about books... people are really awkward.
thx for that book recommendation. I love the turkish culture, and will put it on my list... after I'm done with the sea, the arabs and the balkans.
No worries. Lemmy is unfortunately sometimes Like Reddit. Comments get downvoted just because of opinions.
I wish you the best and really hope that people learn to live in peace and that there are consequences for evil goverments. It doesn’t look that at the moment, but you can hope.
the thing is...WTF do people care about Israel, Brazil, Uganda, Madagascar, etc. when applying for German citizenship? That's the whole point of this absurdity.
You can’t understand that a county that once did a genocide tried to make amends?
A country being shitty doesn't mean they don't have a right to exist. Does Russia not have a right to exist? Did Iraq not have a right to exist?
Countries, as a rule, don't have a right to exist. People have a right to self-determination. These are different things. That said, Israel is fundamentally an Apartheid state. If Israel stopped being an Apartheid state it'd stop being Israel. And if a state needs to treat half the people in it as second class citizens to exist then it can go die in a ditch.
no state has a right to exist. None of them.
Points for consistency, but no points for nihilism because the points are meaningless anyway.
I don't consider myself a nihilist, so where did that come from?
White South Africa did not have the right to exist. Rhodesia did not have a right to exist.
That's what we are talking about.
Israel has become a Jewish supremacist apartheid state. Its crimes have become so egregious and so entrenched ("facts on the ground") that it is not unreasonable to argue that it cannot be reformed in its present form. In this case it is reasonable to argue for its replacement by a democratic successor state in which Jews and others will all have the same rights to freedom and safety.
So funny story, South Africa was able to end apartheid without not existing.
Imagine that!
Wake me up when Israel institutes universal suffrage and legal equality for everyone from the river to the sea, elects Marwan Barghouthi as president and changes it flag and anthem to incorporate Palestinian national symbolism. If such a country would like to still call itself Israel, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
Because this is what ending apartheid means, buddy. Not just getting rid of Netanyahu, but deep structural change, and a commitment to justice, truth and reconciliation.
I favor a two state solution myself, as it is my understanding that is the desire of the majority of Palestinians.
Yes, it is the Fatah line as well. If it were feasible, I would also support it. However, Israeli created "facts on the ground" say it isn't. It is impossible to extract the entrenched colonists from the West Bank and it is impossible for Israel to accept a sovereign Palestine that is anything more than a Bantustan. Worse, it might just mean that Israel will have not one but two Gazas on its doorstep. It's a recipe for more death and destruction.
The 2SS was reasonable 30 years ago. That time has very sadly passed. Just like the Palestinians lost their chance in '48, so did the Israelis lose their chance at Camp David in 2000. The current mess is a knot that can only be solved by a single state solution. And if that is the case, and we agree that either side "cleansing" the other is completely unacceptable, then universal equality from the river to the sea, a democratic country, is the only game left.
We disagree on whether a two state solution is possible but do agree that either side committing genocide on the other is unacceptable.
I disagree that a single state solution is possible, even if we named it Peaceland because the same conflict you say prevents the two state solution will still exist and the conflict will continue within the single state. Forcing two opposing cultures into a single state against their will is how we get ethnic cleansing, aka genocide.
We obviously also disagree on what causes the conflict. I don't see it as a clash between opposing cultures, which by definition is irreconcilable. It is a clash over land, over sovereignty, over rights, over resources. These can of course be resolved and have been resolved even at least tentatively in many countries in the region. With justice can come peace.
If Serbs and Muslims can coexist in Bosnia, if Macedonians and Albanians can coexist in North Macedonia, if Protestants and Catholics can coexist in Northern Ireland, if Flemings and Waloons can coexist in Belgium, if the various denominations can coexist in Lebanon, if English and French can coexist in Quebec, then Israelis and Palestinians can work it out as well. Note that the above examples are at a varying degree of peace and harmony, from not very much to quite a lot. But none of them are genocidal cases. In fact, a couple are societies that coexist after a genocide took place (Bosnia, Ireland).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide
Forcing them to live together would be creating the same conditions that led to the genocide! Do you think they will just skip past the genocide this time?
You bringing up the Bosnian Genocide reinforces my point rather than undercut it.
The Bosnian genocide happened, just like the Nakba did (or arguably still is) and still after it happened, the Bosnia and Herzegovina of today exists. In Bosnia today Serbs and Muslims coexist, even if Serbs massacred the Muslims in the past. Same for Israelis and Palestinians: the Bosnia of today is a case study of what an Israel/Palestine of tomorrow might look like.
That's exactly why I mentioned Bosnia and Ireland in the first place.
We could also learn something from that and the other genocides and not force the conflict to escalate in the hope that the future survivors work things out.
I really don't understand how ending apartheid is an escalation from where we are now. It's precisely the opposite: de-escalation and peace.
We are living the genocide moment, right now, and we have been living it for several decades. This is about ending this genocidal status quo. What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you mean you support Russian ownership of Crimea?
No, because Crimea is part of Ukraine.
What makes it different from Israel on occupied Palestine?
Honestly, time. Time eventually changes things and Russia's occupation of Crimea was only a decade ago and the founding of Israel was like 80 years ago. Israel's continued expansion and settlement is wrong and comparable to Russia occupying Crimea.
Then why isn't Germany recognizing Palestine? Those people have been there quite a while.
Only the 75 year old Israel appears to enjoy existence for Germany. Of course supporting Israel's now open and blatant annexation of the West Bank and planned annexation of Gaza.
Germany should recognize Palestine!
But the fact that they don't doesn't mean they shouldn't be actively opposing antisemitism in Germany. Opposing Israel's actions is different than "Israel shouldn't exist" because in the context of Germany and the neo mazid, not existing is literal and includes the people of Israel.
Germany is famous for being a primary enabler of the Genocide in Gaza. Only beaten by America the original Nazis from Manifest Destiny.
Supporting the white nationalist ethnostate of Israel only solidifies the Nazi reputation of Germany being as strong as ever.
This pretense of antisemitism is just a dogwhistle for white nationalists to hide their racism
Ok tankie.