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In photos: Thousands protest in Israel to demand Gaza deal
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this post was submitted on 01 Sep 2024
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You cannot assume the people protesting here are the same as the people in that riot. That is not fair to them.
As a Jew who fled the USSR in the 1980s, I fully co-sign Norman Finklestein‘s (a Jewish intellectual and scholar on the subject who lost his family to the Nazi holocaust) assessment that Israel is a sick society.
In October, 58% Israelis polled said that Israel is using too little firepower in Gaza.
In December, they were polled and asked to what extent should Israel take into account the suffering of the Palestinian civilian population. Over 80% said to a little extent.
https://truthout.org/articles/polls-show-broad-support-in-israel-for-gazas-destruction-and-starvation/
While I agree with you, I can't entirely discount /u/oakey66. History has proved it for decades.
I can't discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let's not pretend they're a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.
If there are dissenting voices in Israel they need to speak up. And if voices within Israel are speaking up they need to be amplified.
All dissent I've heard has come from the diaspora.
“Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.
I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we're seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.
Then maybe you should, I don't know, click on the link at the top of this article and look at the photos.
Or possibly just read the headline of the post you're commenting in.
For fuck's sake...
They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.
Maybe you should read the article.
This article?
I read it.
Why are you gaslighting?
The trigger for the protests and ceasefire demands was for the rescue hostages, not the end of the ongoing genocide.
@oakey66@lemmy.world started this thread with the topic:
and they are right.
You said:
I pointed out that I've seen there are no sources I've seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I've seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @oakey66@lemmy.world 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.
You then responded with:
But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on "getting the hostages back". If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I'd love to find them. I've not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don't seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.
If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.
Let me get this straight...
Are you really claiming that the entire population of Israel- all 9.5 million people- share exactly the same opinion on Palestine?
Because that would be incredibly fucking bigoted of you, so I want to make sure that's what you're saying.
No, I'm making the point that if there is descent on this issue within Israel I can't find it. I haven't heard it. I'm also not going to project a desire to believe it exists onto a world where I don't have evidence for it. I want to find it. I've looked for it. I can't find it.
All the Jewish led criticism I've found of Israels actions appears to be coming from the diaspora. I can't find sources from within Israel calling the Israeli campaign a genocide or calling for it to stop.
How many people have you actually heard from? Let's say percentagewise- what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis have you heard from to determine that there is no dissent?
I think you need to address the fact that you've conflated these protests for something they are not before we can proceed, and I continue to treat with you as if you are engaging in good faith.
Can you acknowledge that these protest are not about stopping the genocide of the Palestinian people? That the article is not about stopping genocide? Because you made that conflation previously.
I can acknowledge that many of the protesters are not about stopping that. I cannot acknowledge that there is no one there protesting genocide. I would like to see evidence to that effect. If they are anything like the many anti-war protests I have attended, there is a wide range of opinions amongst the protesters beyond "end the war."
I have not talked to the thousands of people protesting. I do not know what they all think. Or even what most of them think.
Now, please tell me what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis you have heard from to determine that there is no dissent inside Israel.
You want there to be this different thing that this protest about. I wish it was about that thing too. But when a protestor says "I'm protesting about this thing" my job isn't to tell them they are actually protesting some other thing or that they should be protesting this other thing. My job is to listen to them and believe what they are telling me.
But the protestors are being clear about what they are protesting about. They want the hostages back. They are not talking at all about stopping the genocide.
As far as people I've talked to about this. One is a personal friend, a former IDF soldier and former fellow organizer during BLM 2020. We organized as part of a veterans coalition in support of BLM. Second is my cousins and Uncle (a self described Zionist) who is a very high level organizer on the US side for Israel. He has spent years in Israel although he lives in the US, as have my cousins. I've also spoken with my irl best friend who is from Palestine and with whom I was literally planning a trip to Gaza for not that if not for Oct 7th, who has personally organized Palestinians for peace events in Gaza.
I also listen to and read several prominent Palestinian/ Muslim/ and Jewish voices on the left.
If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we've gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.
If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.
Sure, right after I show you how I don't have dual loyalties to America and Israel, right? I have to show people that one all the time.
Of course, a lot of times, they don't believe me anyway.
You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I've looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a "don't genocide the Gazans" movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.
Funny how you left out the whole Jewish diaspora part this time like you said before. Because you absolutely suggested that people like me are Israelis or even have some sort of opinion about Israel that should be weighted higher than any other non-Israeli.
I want to make this absolutely clear to you:
I am a Jew.
I am not an Israeli.
I have no affiliation to Israel.
I have no Israeli relatives.
I have never been and do not plan to go.
I feel absolutely no allegiance or kinship or anything else to Israel and never have.
I was born in Indiana.
I have far more in common with a Palestinian-American born in Omaha than I do a Jewish Israeli born in Tel Aviv.
Therefore: my stance on Israeli genocide is of equal weight to yours.
So stop bringing up non-Israeli Jews as if they are of specific relevance to this issue.
You like, really need to go touch some grass.
You are asking people to support your claim that there is an extant anti-genocide movement within Israel. You've done it repeatedly throughout this entire post.
YOU are making a claim and I'm asking for your evidence.
And I am telling you that I have no reason to give anything to someone who thinks about me and other non-Israeli Jews in such a bigoted way no matter how many times they ask.
Sorry, you lost that when you decided I have dual loyalties.
You are just making up the idea that anything any one here has said is biggoted. Its completely disconnected from reality
I will quote you again:
And I will tell you again: I am not an Israeli. I have no affiliation to Israel. Stop associating me with Israel. It's bigoted. More to the point, it's a lie.
What in the chicken-fired chuckle fuck are you talking about?
I'm asking you to support something you've said with evidence. I'm telling you that I've looked for the thing you claim exists and I can't find it. You have continuously repeated a claim about there being an anti-genocide movement within Israel that requires accounting for. I've looked for this movement in media and within my friends and family in the region. I can't find evidence for it. You claim it exists. Show me your evidence or shut the fuck up.