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this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2024
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Here's an honest question : are they buying all the weapons and ammo? If so then the suppliers need to ramp up production. It's money in their pickets.
If they aren't buying all weapons and ammo, and some is being given to the Ukraine . Then maybe we need to change what is happening. No one can continue forever giving money to another person /entity. Sooner or later the money runs out.
The real question is, if it's becoming a financially strain then maybe it's time we change tactics and end this thing faster. Maybe it's time to send NATO in. Yes I know Ukraine doesn't want foreign militaries in there but if they haven't won by now maybe a hard choice has to be made.
That doesn't make any logical sense. You say it's a financial strain to send equipment and propose sending NATO in to help. Where is NATO getting their equipment from?
ITS THE SAME EQUIPMENT.
You are missing a step. Right now we are sending them equipment, and they are barely holding their own. If NATO goes in, then it’s a TON more equipment, plus a TON more troops. If Russia is barely holding their own against Ukraine, do you think they can hold back all of NATO?
That war would be over a lot quicker
Also, there is equipment that can’t be sent Ukraine, for example of the United States F 22, we literally can’t give that to the Ukraine. The law prevents it. But if NATO went in, that means the US would go in and the US could fly the F-22 into combat there.
Then why isn't it sent to Ukraine?
Ukraine has said they need supplies, not troops.
Some of it,such as the f-22, the US can't legally sell or give to them by law. It's literally against the law.
Also there is the cost of the rest of it. If the Ukraine government is paying for it then yes sell it, but some of it is not being paid for. Some of it is being GIVEN. That costs money from the US tax players. At some point that well runs dry. You can't just keep giving and giving. It doesn't work. So since this has gone on long enough maybe it's time to end it.
As for Ukraine saying no troops. Let's recap. If the Ukraine was paying for ALL of it then I'd say just keep selling equipment to them. Sooner or later one side or the other breaks. But some of it is not being paid for. The dollar amount is getting large of what congress has authorized so far. How long before our budget says wtf?! Sooner or later either we stop giving to save our economy or we send troops before we get to that point to end it faster.
Yes I know Ukraine is saying no troops but there is the other half that equation. Ukraine is going to have to make a tough call at some point, unless they figure out how to beat Russia before that point.
Money is a finite item, it is not infinite
Money is spent within the US and used to procure new stuff. At the same time the US sends their dated stockpiles to Ukraine. The US spends money maintaining stockpiles (keeping stuff operational is not free) and explosives have a shelf life, so once near expiration it needs to be either refurbished or disposed of and both cost money too.
Money is virtually endless in this aspect, as the amounts spent on this for help to Ukraine amounts to a small percentage.
The total spent is 177 billion since the start of the war, of which 107 billion is sent, the rest is used by the us military to cover the cost of the help (logistics, oversight etc.).
In the same period the US military had a budget of 817 billion a year.. and we are in year.. 3 so 60 per year out of 817 billion. And again the 107 billion is spent on buying replacement stuff from US defence contractors who employ US workers and pay US taxes. This is not as expensive as you think. The other 70 billion pays US military costs. So in essence it is an increase in us defense spending.
If your numbers are accurate, and it is just an increase in us defense spending at the end of the day, then I'm less concerned about it
It was for what I explained above. This is money that is spent on top of the 817 billion us defense budget.
Yeah. Sadly i agree. It's on top of. 35.3 trillion at this point in debt. We can't keep going like this. It's why I say I'm less concerned but not going to say I'm not concerned. It's also why I say if we are going to keep spending then maybe we need to figure out if there is a way to end this thing faster. At some point the well of cash runs dry. What happens when we can't spend more and Ukraine is sitting without weapons?
Yes the old weapons are going to Ukraine and we get new stuff, but as your numbers show it's still spending more money at the end of the day.
It just comes down to how much of an increase and where that break even point is.
The US has been letting their mega corps and billionaires get off without paying proper taxes for decades. How many trillions did trump add to the deficit with his tax cut for the rich?
These issues are probably fixed by stopping with Reaganomic thinking. Taxing unrealized capital gains, disallowing stock buybacks and switching to a method of revenue based taxing as the profits just flow to tax havens and sit there.
Edit: also you know that the US military complex as a whole is just a gigantic social security program with extra steps, right?
I agree with everything that you said except taxing unrealized gains. That is dumb as hell.
I’m basically broke. But I have a few stocks that I own. If they go up , I should pay taxes even if they then go down? Which makes it even harder to get ahead. Exactly how is this a good idea?
Are we going to magically set the dollar amount to only include the ultra wealthy even though we all know they won’t pay anyway because they’ll make it appear on paper they didn’t make that much and only the middle class and poor people will pay? (Holy shit was that a run on sentence. Meh I’ll leave it).
But anyway yeah I’ll agree with the rest of it
Sending NATO in fundamentally breaks the treaties upon which the organization was founded. NATO isn't a joint military force to send to places for freedom and democracy, it's a defensive organization. Without an explicit article 5 declaration from a current member state against a specific threat for a specific reason, a deployment of NATO would be undermining of the organization's mission in itself, putting in question whether NATO is there to protect its members or just to be used as a cudgel for potential inconvenient threats because the alternative is a financial strain.
Interventions like this, such as the 2011 intervention on Libya to enforce UN resolution 1973 will fuel arguments that NATO is altering its mission from defending its members to participate in US led (or in this case also French led) interventionism. Upon such a time where threats are no longer direct as is the case of the current Russian invasion of Ukraine, this will have implications on the future of the organization and questions will be made about its purpose, as it has happened before after the fall of the USSR. Ultimately NATO's mandate must be upheld and strictly followed, for the sake of the treaty. At least that's the opinion i share.
You have a very good point.
In that case instead of NATO, then maybe the world builds some sort of coalition to take care of the problem. Those countries that want to put an end to this war can. But at the end of the day, it's up to the Ukraine to allow to happen, but we need to start looking at what exactly it is costing each year and ask if it's sustainable
That would be possible but it would take a long time and one of the bigger issues that has persisted in this war is, will Ukraine last long enough that when a new coalition is made or even when new equipment is delivered, those efforts will still be there on time to be useful ? I think this has been the crux of the question for all delays we've seen on war support on this war.
I think most world leaders didn't really believe Ukraine would still be fighting today back when the war started and didn't want to deliver tanks and jets to a soon to be occupied Ukraine. This is why we're in this hodgepodge of inefficiency. And we still don't know if Ukraine will still be fighting in 2 years from now, but i feel world leaders are more confident on it than 2 years ago, so things should probably come to a more streamlined solution as time goes by.
Agreed its time to send NATO in. NATO should have closed Ukraine's airspace when this started.