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can i get a rundown on rojava?
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this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2024
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chapotraphouse
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I've seen some criticism of Rojava, specifically because they have private property rights, some Kurdish nationalist tendencies, and their status as sort of a US proxy. I don't know enough about the situation to say how true that all is, though.
https://linestruggle.medium.com/on-rojava-and-the-western-left-bac1b858173e
https://mesopotamia.coop/rojava-the-formation-of-an-economic-alternative-private-property-in-the-service-of-all/
From what I gather, its mostly about having a decentralized organizational structure, which makes sense for a movement thats spread across three or more countries. Decentralized movements often lack the capability of coordinated action and seize opportunities but are much harder to kill off compared to centralized orgs.
Do you know if the Kurdish groups outside of Rojava follow Ocalan's teachings? I was under the impression they do not.
The Kurds in Turkey sure do because he's the leader of the PKK. Idk about Iraq. Its a touchy subject to say the Kurds in Syria follow Öcalan, since they swear no affiliation with the PKK.
I think this needs to be put in context as Kurds are a big ethnic group that has a very long history of pretty brutal oppression, especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you're a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you're a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
I'm not sure where OP is but imagine if the Roma people had their own ancestral homeland that they have continually occupied which was pretty unified but which is also divided by modern European borders. There's every chance that the Roma people would be like "Fuck this, we have been treated like dogshit (including being subjected to ethnic cleansing and genocide) and there isn't a single state in Europe which is gonna look out for us so we need to look out for ourselves and create a Roma state" because it's essentially exactly that for Kurds right now.
I'd say that Kurds are best understood as as existing in an internal colony within Iran, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. With this in context I view Kurdish nationalism as being more aligned to national liberation than the uglier side of nationalism.
With that being said, the Kurds are not angels and there are troubling reports about Kurdish forces carrying out ethnic cleansing and even genocide. The problem is that governments, especially the Syrian and Turkish governments, are extremely hostile towards Kurds and the reports of ethnic cleansing are easily fabricated, exaggerated (e.g. non-Kurds who lived under ISIS fairly contently fleeing when Kurdish forces take a region because they don't want to end up imprisoned for collaborating with ISIS or simply fleeing because a new salient has opened up where they live and they don't want to get killed in the fighting), or they are distorted (e.g. masses fleeing ISIS or another force but the blame being pinned on Kurds for political reasons) so it's difficult to really get a good grasp of what's going on.
Ultimately Kurds are stuck in a shitty situation that has been foisted upon them by other political players and they're doing what is in their interests so it's hard to be unsympathetic towards them.
Are they being used as a splinter group to foment balkanisation in the region of the Levant by the US who seeks to destabilise and overthrow the Syrian government? Yep, at least historically.
Are they used as a tool by the US to keep Erdogan on a leash so that he doesn't stray too far from Uncle Sam's agenda, at the risk of them supporting Kurdish separatism and turning Turkey into a civil warzone/rump state? Yes.
If I were Kurdish and had the chance to shoot my shot for the opportunity of establishing a Kurdistan as a recognised state and distinct political entity, would I go for it? Yes.
If I were on the frontlines fighting against ISIS, a force that would absolutely exterminate Kurds if they are given the opportunity, and the US armed forces sought to broker a deal to coordinate attacks on ISIS and to provide support to my side, would I take them up on that offer? It brings me no joy to say it but yes, I would.
It's a really messy, ugly situation and it has been this way for a very long time for the Kurds. They don't have clean hands but when you're fighting for survival you have to fight dirty.
Idk what to say. A balkanised Syria is bad news for the Syrian people and for the wider region but a strong, unified Syria is no guarantee for safety for the Kurds in any way. If Atatürk didn't have an epiphany one day and decide "You know what? Fuck the Kurds!" then maybe things would be very different right now but as it stands the Kurds only have the safety that they fight for and maintain with their lives so Kurdish nationalism is understandable imo.
To add to this, the Kurds had their own territory under the Ottomans. After WWI, the British and French carved up the empire for themselves. They literally used a ruler to draw straight lines to divide territory. There was no consideration for ethnicities, language, existing borders, etc.
This is why Kurds are spread out across multiple countries, despite being close to one another geographically. If you look at a map showing where the majority of Kurds live, you can see the outline of a would-be country divided amongst its neighbors. Iraq was also a victim of this, with Sunnis and Shia Muslims having their own territories, but then were divided or combined for the benefit of the English and French.
The division of the Middle East was deliberate so European colonizers could pit groups against one another while they pillaged those countries. The same tactic was used with the caste system in India, so the British knew if they replicated that, they wouldn't face any resistance.
I agree that they seem to have just taken the US support as a massive attempt to both get their cause seen by more people (which is helpful in changing hearts and minds away from the "they are PPK and PKK are 'terrorists'" which was how they were presented by even US propaganda). And to use the really good opportunity in the fight against ISIS to get any and all supplies they could from the US in order to keep their area defended for the inevitable attacks from Türkiye after ISIS. Though I am not sure how many weapons and other defense related items they were able to get (but supplies are supplies). They still need to make sure to walk the fine lines with the Syrian government to be sure.
The most fucked thing that they have been left with is the ISIS prisoners and their families. The longer that those massive numbers of people are left in limbo due to all the nations that they originated from not wanting to take them back. The worse shit will be when those folks break out of containment. Shit would be great to use by Türkiye especially as an excuse to "legitimately" invade. Which means brutal genocide of the Kurds from both sides. And if the open air prisons go on long enough, it will be easy for bad-faith actors to eventually paint them as doing what Israel is doing with Gaza/West Bank. Which isn't what they are doing, but multiple generations of families being imprisoned (even if said prisons weren't setup by the Kurds for that length of time in mind) for crimes against humanity that the new generation didn't commit will be easy to use for propaganda.
The Kurds are resourceful, but trying to figure out how to allow people out without it turning into a bloodbath is beyond fucked. It might have been easier (and still beyond fucked) to have not taken prisoners and kill anyone and everyone that flew the ISIS flag before "victory" was claimed. They know that a majority of prisoners actively plan and openly speak about the torture and murder they will commit if they are able to get out. Which I imagine is what the long term goal of Türkiye and other hostile powers wish to make happen. The nations that want to keep their hands clean of bringing ISIS families back home to have to deal with are fine with Kurds being killed. Just like how the US and the West have done with green-washing themselves by pushing shit off onto "third world" nations.
I've gotten into countless screaming matches online with the people who supported the absolute bullshit about the Shamima Begum case, the "ISIS bride" who left the UK and joined up with ISIS before the UK stripped her of her citizenship.
At no point did I ever convince a single person who supported the UK government's actions on the basis of:
Upholding international law that the UK is a signatory to
The fact that UK citizens are the UK's responsibility and that they need to deal with them rather than exporting their problems to developing countries
That a country should not be able to take punitive actions against a citizen by decree without there being a fair judicial process where the accused has an opportunity to defend themselves against the charges and to be evaluated for stuff like their competence because this sets a dangerous precedent for anyone who cares about civil liberties
That Shamima Begum was literally a child who was groomed online and that she should be given leniency based on the fact that she was a stupid kid who made stupid choices
That the best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to strip people of citizenship and mark them as international terrorists (despite there being no charges laid against Shamima in a court of law) so that they become completely dependent upon ISIS and have zero way to reintegrate into society because now they literally cannot enter any country ever again, so this act is one of the most supportive of ISIS and anyone who supports this act is directly aiding and abetting ISIS by creating the political consensus to make it a reality in the first place
That the second best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to provide them with a person who is basically guaranteed to become their broodmare for the next 30 odd years
This was before it came out that she was smuggled to Syria by a Canadian intelligence agent btw.
We're not talking hypotheticals here either.
This is yet-another example of actions by the US that just so happen to support ISIS. Between reports of the US military arming and training groups flying the SDF flag only to discover them a short time later fighting for ISIS and shifty things to do with abandoning weapons caches and funding sources in gulf states it's enough to make me wonder if the US actually opposes ISIS or if it's another Gladio type situation.
definitely this, america always does shit like this.
i mean you don't have to accept US support, there are arguments for it but most can be dismissed in any situation due to historical examples. Any US backed movement usually became nothing but US backed and a vassal of empire, screwing over the revolution. If they wanted to take a rough deal they could have gone with the syrians (which they eventually did anyway). Now they're still sticking with them to disrupt syria despite it.
Of course i think kurdish nationalism as reasonable, but the corruption that comes from being a US backed movement is considerable. I have no illusions that the kurds are treated well under any of their occupier regimes, but rojava was doomed to be a case of cancer by making a deal with the devil. Israel supports kurdistan and has made many pro-kurdish stances in the years of its existence, and alignment with israel is not a good sign for your national liberation struggle. Becoming a US vassal usually means opposing other national liberation struggles that you should have solidarity with, like palestine. Theres in fact a reactionary solidarity of 'both being oppressed by arabs' that is built in some areas of thought, of course not necessarily representing the broader population and can be destroyed from within. Its existence is still notable all in all.
I am not condemning it for being 'not socialist enough' or whatever, since I support national liberation first, but US vassalage puts you into becoming a guard dog of empire, you get in the way of other struggles for self-determination.
its a tough spot, and im still learning. I hope there is a kurdish state in the future at the end of the day, but i hesitate to support a project that comes into conflict with anti imperialism and cozies up to imperialism in such a way.
Sure but there's a difference between accepting some aid or agreeing to participate in military coordination during a war and becoming a puppet of the US.
More than that, the US routinely backs both sides/most sides in conflicts and civil unrest in part because that way they have a bet on every horse and they can use those smaller amounts of backing to test who is willing to play ball and who isn't. The thing is though, we usually only hear about the US backing the big ones and the big ones are usually anti-communist.
Don't forget that Castro received support from the US initially and allegedly received funding from the US too.
If the PKK really was a US puppet then we should expect there to be an immediate shift in attention where politicians and state department goons and the media would start framing Ocalan as a heroic freedom fighter and prisoner of conscience at the hands of the tyrannical Turkish government.
I'm not saying that collaboration with the US government is a good thing or that it shouldn't be viewed with a deep and abiding skeptical eye but there's a difference between accepting some weapons/feeding ISIS coordinates to US command for airstrikes and aligning your movement to US interests.
That's an understatement. They are generally seen as subhuman vermin and they get treated as such.
Careful not to stray into the myth of the immaculate revolution.
I haven't kept up with Rojava but as far as I'm aware they got some aid and they coordinated on a military level but US support for Rojava was, unsurprisingly, quite fleeting and they don't really give a fuck about an ongoing partnership with Rojava. I'm not sure what deals were made exactly but I think framing it in Faustian terms rather than limited military coordination doesn't really reflect the reality.
All Israel cares about is itself. They want a weakened and balkanised West Asia so they have weaker opposition and more opportunities to expand their Golan lebensraum. They'd back ISIS if it meant the fall of the Syrian government because it would provide them with a chance to grab more of Syria.
There's no ideological basis of support for Rojava coming from Israel beyond the "Arabs bad"/"We support the noble freedom fighters who are struggling for a homeland for their oppressed ethnic group because that gives us the aura that Israel is the exact same thing".
I wouldn't take their support for a movement as anything but cyncial political manoeuvring tbh.
In that case, I have good news for you.
But then on the other hand, you would hope that Palestine wouldn't support Turkish sub-imperialism/regional imperialism by cheering them on when they take land from Syria or from Rojava and yet Hamas did exactly that when Turkey seized Afrin.
And this is where it gets messy because down at this level you have pretty extensive collaboration between the PKK and the PFLP going back decades upon decades but the PKK does not support Hamas, and Hamas does not support the PKK.
Sure but how are you defining the term US vassal and how does Rojava meet this definition from your perspective?
If you're saying that the Kurds should subjugate their very real and pressing concerns about their oppression at the hands of the Syrian government out of high-minded ideals about a greater anti-imperialist purpose by supporting Assad then I'm not with you on that.
Syria has worked very hard to suppress the Kurds within its borders. The Syrian government stripped Syrian Kurds of Syrian citizenship en masse, creating stateless people numbering somewhere between a quarter of a million and half a million and now Syria has a Kurdish secessionist state to contend with? That sounds like the second stage in the fuck around and find out process to me.
You had maybe half a million Kurds whose ability to travel outside of their province or to access things like education was prevented by the Syrian government. I see Rojava not as being some betrayal or abandonment of Syria by the Kurds but rather a recognition of the reality, of the long-term consequences of Syria's betrayal and abandonment of the Kurds.
Is the US the great Satan? Undoubtedly.
Is it fair to expect a people to care about this fact when the boot that has been on their neck for generations is that of the Syrian government? I'm not convinced that it is.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/inside-story-how-trump-kept-oil-syria-and-lost https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/03/delta-crescent-energy-syrian-oil-391033 https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/05/kurds-oil-syria-us-troops-trump/
Rojava is an important part of America's extraction of oil and other raw materials. This is a deep economic cooperation.
I admit that i had no knowledge of this information. Self criticism: I've run wild with what little information I have and try to make it known that I know little on the subject when I speak of it.
Politics is confusing as fuck. I very much appreciate Hamas and its righteous fight against genocide, but the PFLP is my personal favorite. George Habash will live forever! Support to both Hamas and PFLP for fighting together against the Zionist menace.
Of course it is cynical political maneuvering, Israel is a state run by genocidal bastards who make it their job to lie to everyone about the genocide of palestine while also actively doing it and cheering it on.
Im talking more about the response of some sectors of kurdistan in supporting Israel in response. Israel wouldn't support this movement unless it got something out of it: the balkanization of syria.
Im entirely ignorant on this matter, I apologize, I did not know the oppression was to such an extent. A thoroughly repugnant and reactionary decision from the Syrian government.
I do believe in Kurdish self determination, and recognize that rojava is an inevitable and correct response to a hostile government infringing on their self determination. I did before and will continue to believe in such, I just wanted to state my confusion on the matter at hand, and help find new information and perspectives.
Although its very privileged of me to lay in my bed debating the merits of a life or death liberation struggle... this is fucked up
and to this, with your stated reasons, I can understand this. I shouldn't have said or implied that they should just deal with this racial discrimination and the ethnic cleansing that they have faced for centuries.
Im just confused, to have two technically 'good' and 'righteous' struggles against imperialism in conflict. America stirring up trouble in the region is no help either.
I sympathize with the perspective, but historically that road is extremely dangerous. China's own US aligned policy during the cold war is a testament to this. Funding the mujaheideen, Pol Pot, and conducting armed incursions into soviet territory were just insane but necessary requirements for an pro american policy. Thats even as China is a Independent state entity, while Rojava is a small separatist movement being tossed in the flames of civil war.
Im just stumped on where to align. I dont have to fully back any power, but its more of making sure my own ideological outlook is not an incorrect and reactionary one. National liberation is important to me as I live in Hawaii, and am fully committed to its complete independence and self determination of the Native hawaiians (that being control over state, culture, and economy of the nation of Hawaii). Having a good line on minority rights and national liberation is a big concern of mine. Here, complete opposition to the US is the only way to truly liberate ourselves, so I guess the context is different in other places...
I mean Gaddaffi did support the Kurds immensely...
bah its all a mess
in the article link he goes on to say:
"Instead of a life where Palestinians and Israelis live side by side, conflict is promoted. Neither Zionism, nor Islamic fanaticism, anti-semitism, or arabic nationalism will solve the problem."
followed by
"We must search for a solution beyond nation states. The project and the idea of the Democratic Nation, developed by Abdullah Öcalan, as the self-government and self-defense of peoples without a state is the best solution, not just for Kurdistan but also for the Palestine-Israel conflict. Both sides urgently need to change their mentality. Therefore, it is a prerequisite that this Zionist mentality is abandoned. The Palestinians could also approach the question of how they could live together with the Jews with a democratic concept."
which is about exactly as useful of commentary as those anarchists who are like "no state solution" for palestine and israel. This is non support and giving some words saying 'this is sad they should it my way though'.
but they also write:
"Of course, the Palestinians will insist on a life in which they will administrate themselves and there will be no interference from Israel. To defend against authoritarian and oppressive policies and practices is a natural right. It is another prerequisite that the construction of new settlements on Palestinian soil is stopped. In addition, it is necessary to abandon hostile policies towards the Arab and Islamic world. Because there is also this dimension of Israeli-Arab Peace. It is not just a Jewish-Palestinian problem anymore, it has now become an Arab-Israeli problem."
and
"Since the emergence of the PKK, we have been against Zionism. We compared the genocide of the Kurds in Turkey with Israeli Zionism and the apartheid regime of South Africa. Since its founding, the PKK has fought side by side with the Palestinians. In 1982, 13 of our cadres fell in the fight against the occupation of Lebanon by Israel. The Israeli state also participated in the international conspiracy against Abdullah Öcalan, and murdered four of our comrades in Berlin. No doubt, we will never forget the support the Palestinians gave to the Kurdish people in the 1980s."
So i cant really complain. I guess the whole 'they should do it our way to do it the best way' is something us marxist leninists also do.
thank you for the reading, its very interesting! Of course i don't make my support based on if they're a proper ideology or socialist enough when it comes to national liberation, but the reactionary nationalist tendencies and western vassalage is something of great concern to me