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this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2024
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i wish that people had as vivid of imagination when thinking of ways to build a mass movement to fix the problems with our deeply dysfunctional "democracy" designed by and for the benefit of the wealthy 1%, as they did when trying to find excuses as to why every single part of said political system is totally irreplaceable and in fact is functioning perfectly within the best system possible.
A better world is possible, but it is up to us to change it.
I think you're misattributing my intent. If you want to make corporate lobbying illegal or highly regulated I'm all for it. But lobbying overall is an inherently good and important part of politics. If you merely talk to a politician about a bill you want to pass you are lobbying. But you are likely very bad at it compared to a professional, so you pay an organization to do it on your behalf. Do you expect politicians to live in a black box completely disconnected from constituent issues as long as they are in office? Because that's how you get laws passed that have nothing to do with human need. If I donate to the ACLU, HRC, or an environmental group, I expect that some of my money will be spent on lobbying congress. That is not bad or evil.
I volunteer with a few (American) political organizations and have connections to politicians and organizations. we have people who we elect democratically who are highly educated, highly motivated, and politically plugged in who talk with politicians all over the world all the time! We are in coalition with an elected politician who is a member of the Irish Daìl, which is like their house of reps, every day we talk with him and ask him questions, and his organization and ours trade information, ideas, articles, book recommendations, you name it. We've sent delegates to Cuba to meet with the President, and groups who oppose his government. Weve sent peoole all over the country and the world for political work and ive gotten to have some amazing experiences participating just a little bit in this kind of work. If people won't talk to us we hold rallys and protests and make them talk to us. Similar to how you described, we pay dues, publish magazines and even participate in national and international debates. Our members have been on tv, podcasts, YouTube, and we are working toward creating our own. And that's just one of the orgs I'm in, another has members in congress, and its not the GOP or the Dems.
So sorry, no, you're wrong. Even if there are (purely hypothetical) cases where the system you are describing does work for people, there is no accountability to the people and it really only works to keep professional operators in Washington speaking on behalf of their own interests and the interests of the orgs that pay them. I know good people who are lobbyists, who lobby to do good things. But their position is in no way a political necessity. Grassroots bottom up politics is not only possible its the only way to have real democracy. The top down structures you advocate for only create and reproduce the conditions of exploitation, poverty, immiseration and war. Sorry friend, but I just dont buy it.
An alternate view for you, politicians can't possibly be expected to know about everything, care about every cause, meet with every person. One of lobbyists roles is to educate and motivate where otherwise politicians may be complacent. The reason that education is currently problematic is because powerful people control much of the "education". I think a well regulated lobbying system could remove some of the downsides while keeping the upsides. I've also worked in and around politics, that reality doesn't make either one of us more or less correct.
Yeah I can tell you have some experience in political spaces, most people online lose their cool talking politics, but you're just firmly stating your position. Which I disagree with, and that's okay! I disagree with people inside my own orgs all the time, sometimes loudly! The fact is its a very complicated system. And power is deeply entrenched. There's nothing to be gained for the org that's too "radical" to engage in mainstream politics, every city has a group or two like this. They can even have very good politics and analysis but you have to be able to build power, and frankly its just easier to talk a big game and collect dues payments or donations.
It seems to me that you're at least a progressive, as you are reform minded and that's great! That basically puts us on the same side of systematic injustice. There might be some issues we couldn't reconcile but in my experience it doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't work together or even end up on the same side of a protest. Despite my polemics, I'm a through and through humanist. But I'm deeply skeptical of parliamentary democracy, not to the degree where I discourage voting, but I'm more concerned with educating workers and regular people than the politicians. I'm proud of the educational work we've been able to accomplish in the last year alone; it wasn't long ago that democratic leaders were calling support for Palestinians a Russian misinformation campaign, now its one of the most pressing issues for the international working class. Not saying "we did that," but we did our part in boosting the signal and cutting through the noise.
Anyway I very strongly do not believe lobbyists are necessary to democracy and I work to try and create a world where they wouldn't be (although that's not exactly the highest on our list of priorities, god knows.) But in the world as it exists today, these structures exist and that's just a fact. I believe the work I contribute to is a necessary part of a healthy democracy, and you're a reasonable person who believes that lobbying work is an important part of the system.
Today, the system needs us both to work together and part of that is having lively discussions and educating one another. Maybe some piece of what you said will stay with me or serve as a reminder some time in the future, and maybe the reverse also. We don't have to be won over to each other's ideas for them to have an effect. And we got all these other people contributing to the discussion as well. That's pretty cool to me. So yeah we have a difference of opinion, but we are both coming from a place of education and experience, trying to solve the same problems from different ends of the same dynamic system. At least I hope that's what's going on here.
Thanks for the discussion, I appreciate you.