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this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2023
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They want an echo chamber
I thought it was because they lacked the ability to effectively moderate.
That's correct.
Moderator tools on Lemmy are still super, super basic when compared to Reddit's. There's a fair bit of work to be done yet.
To some people having any moderation beyond "just block the trolls yourself lmao" means creating an echo chamber.
Which effectively creates an echo chamber, be it good or bad
If the echo chamber I’m a part of prevents nazi and fascist ideology from becoming normal than I’m all for it.
Excuse me if you misunderstood my initial comment but it doesn't argue against your statement at all. Again, a good or a bad one, an echo chamber is an echo chamber
That is the direct reason, yes, but the larger problem is that without effective moderation they are unable to curate the type of community they want. "Safe space" is a loaded term, but if you actually read Beehaw's documents (particularly the 'spirit of the rules' one) it is quite clear that they are attempting to create an online community where people feel safe and can be themselves free from attack and/or ridicule. The de-federation is because they are unable to deliver on this "safe space" promise at the moment. In my opinion that's absolutely fine and they should be praised for taking quick and decisive action to protect their community. It doesn't need to be some controversial thing that people attempt PR spin over. Just call it what it is. If people have a problem with it, unlucky.
Oh, gardens can have diversity without being an echo chamber. As they said they don’t see another way to stop those people who like to shit in carefully created gardens.
Nobody likes shit in their garden.
The flowers do.
(I'll just show myself out).
If they wanted an echo chamber they would have defederated from all other instances.
I'm sure they have a reason,whether it's the correct decision is another matter.
To be fair, they are pretty highly defederated compared to most instances.
it's just because the mod tools aren't where they need to be yet and beehaw does a lot of work to protect minorities. the mods weren't really happy with having to defederate and they plan on refederating once the tools are better or we get settled in
And this is exactly why they have to defederate. People like you exists.
He says, in an instance that banned downvotes.
...but he has 62 downvotes?
He can't see them
I mean---maybe? That wouldn't necessarily be malicious, but I think it's fair and appropriate to apply a healthy amount of skepticism and suspicion to their purported goals and reasoning. Beehaw is a self-proclaimed "safe space", and unfortunately that term has become a kind of dog whistle for militant identity politics.
Particularly in instances, like this one, when thinly veiled patronizing is wielded to preemptively paint a large group of strangers with a very broad brush in the purported aim of protecting marginalized persons from "malicious" outsiders, my cynicism radar tends to beep very loudly. It may well in fact be true that the current suite of mod tools makes beehaw's managers powerless against an overwhelming tide of new traffic, but that wouldn't automatically rule out competitive motives.
Federated or not, Lemmy represents an opportunity for wealth for whoever is best positioned if it ends up being a successor to Reddit, and what we're going to see is a round of jockeying and vying for position in the coming (ongoing) chaos. I'll admit that like many of us I'm very new to this platform, but the fact that defederation is possible at all leads me to believe that less scrupulous individuals in positions of ownership could with only small effort leverage it to enlarge their influence at the expense of competing servers.
Maybe I'm dead wrong on a technical level; maybe I'm full of shit--I'll admit I basically don't know what I'm talking about except in the broadest possible terms, so somebody please correct me if I'm wrong--but I wonder if this isn't so much about creating an echo chamber as incentivizing people who identify with beehaw's stated ideology to come under its umbrella (with supposed protections for hate speech), and defederation is just a way to force people to make the same kind of unhappy, unnecessary choices many of us just made with Reddit.
EDIT: I really can't thank y'all enough for this. It feels like I'm right back on Reddit. From the accusations that I must be a secret conservative because I dared to question motives to the folks unable to actually engage in discourse without manufactured disdain, it's like nothing has changed at all.
Maybe beehaw doesn't have an axe to grind, but somebody sure does.
My god, this post was unnecessarily long. I think they just don't weirdos posting dick pics and bombarding it with questionable content. Not everything is a culture war.
I’m voting for full of shit based on the dotted line you drew between any safe space and militantism.
Okay. To be clear, I wouldn't automatically assume anybody who wants to be free from hate speech has bad intentions, but I also think it's fair to be critical of any effort to stifle dissenting opinion--even uncomfortable opinion--with the justification that the censorship is to a third party's benefit, and it's immaterial whether the third party is children, a historically disadvantaged group, or any other class. That is, I don't say all this to accuse beehaw of ulterior motives--but I also wouldn't put it past anybody, and skepticism is appropriate (like always). More and more frequently, "safe space" really just means: We want an echo chamber, but it's okay because we know best. That's a red flag.
When it comes to racism, sexism, and transphobia, the “dissenting opinions” are things like “you do not exist” and “you are sub human” and “you do not deserve rights.”
You’re fooling yourself if you think that not tolerating hate == stifling dissenting opinion. How should one stand up for human rights? Moderately? Or militantly?
Sounds like you’ve bought the old conservative line of bullshit on all this. “Oh they don’t permit sexism? We should be highly skeptical of this!! What about freedom of speech??”
Le sigh
The problem with defederation is the same problem with the position you're taking, that it conflates all opinion with whatever worst thing you can imagine, enabling you to insist that because some people are awful, everyone who doesn't agree with the proposition is (or in beehaw's case, everyone who doesn't join their walled garden). This isn't a case of "they don't permit sexism." They didn't permit sexism when they were still federated. Defederation is an extra step--they want you to use their server or otherwise not participate in their communities at all, and the explanation for why is that the people on lemmy.world are sexist. Maybe they're authentically overwhelmed, and it's certainly their prerogative, but one would be wise to examine their stated basis more critically, because heavy handed owners of platform infrastructure are why Lemmy is in this position in the first place.
Now you’re just not reading. Look at this thread. It’s been clearly shown and stated publicly that they are simply overwhelmed by the explosive growth coming at them from instances like lemmy.world that have added millions of members overnight. They have a more intentionally managed community with high standards and hands on moderators and they cannot right now handle the sudden explosive volume. They are trying to scale up and their desire and intention is to refederate. Meanwhile you have spun up all kinds of tales in your head about how they want to control speech or ban it because of their militant identity politics. You’re making all of that up, when the actual explanations are right there in public for you to read. Try gathering more information and forming fewer judgments based on your internal biases.
I simply adore it when the right tries to use the vocabulary of the left and only outs itself!