It's like these libs believe that Kamala is entitled to our vote.
If I didn't vote for 
, then I simply would not vote! It's not "PSL or Kamala;" it's "PSL or sit on my ass at home."
I know libs don't understand nuance, but it still is so frustrating that they put this framing on me where they assume that I have any actual interest in a Kamala president over a Trump presidency.
Not only that, but this person called Claudia de la Cruz a "clowny leftist with no choice of winning" (which isn't the point of a third party vote; let's be real), but I just told the lib, "You call her clowny, but you are literally guilt tripping and insulting me just because I won't vote for someone who is actively greenlighting a genocide on Palestinians." and then I blocked.
Whether Trump or Kamala wins, I'll enjoy social media outrage from either side, but it seems like what I'll see from liberals in the case of a Trump election will be more entertaining. I truly think libs are beyond being redeemed, and that even goes for the more "progressive" types who appropriate the label of "democratic socialist" like Bernie and AOC. I don't adhere to lesser-evilism, so I'm not gonna pretend that this one-party state with two parties has one side over the other functioning in a way that could especially benefit me.
It's especially funny when they skin leftists and wear their faces, talk a big game, but never go through with any organizational efforts and just vote dem. Or, it would be funny, if it wasn't tragic. Scratch a lib, and a fascist bleeds and all that.
That said, most liberals aren't "beyond redemption," or at least can still be educated and radicalized IMO, we just need to adapt our tactics to newfound results. I imagine I'm not the only former liberal on this site. Debatebroing like I used to do wasn't generally useful. As Imperialism dies, material conditions shift, and more people can be turned towards Leftism, it's important to steer this natural process of radicalization than it is to debatelord IMO.
Except for the fact that they're knowingly backing literal genocide. These aren't 2012 semi-malleable liberals, these are collaborators, compradorés, and kapos.
Death to the settlers; death to their empire.
I don't disagree, my point is more that most aren't proletarianized enough by Imperialist decay to give a fuck. The "true believers?" Fuck them entirely. The ignorant masses? Most can still be persuaded IMO, but have varying degrees of malleability.
The horrible fucking truth is that most of the Amerikkkan people don't give a shit beyond their white picket fences. They are liberals out of convenience, the ones privledged enough to sleepwalk through life, but fortunately for us they can be persuaded when eventually they must care. Are these the most moral people? Absolutely fucking not.
I dunno, maybe I have more internal liberalism I need to kill, but converting libs to comrades still seems possible to me, and necessary for revolution. They just need to kill their inner liberal as well.
i cant agree with this. anybody who witnessed the government murder over a million people with COVID and then a few short years later double down on supporting the genocide of palestinians is indeed irredeemable. the only libs who aren't are those who aren't really interested in politics enough to be paying attention.
Death to America
Depends. There are ideological full liberals, and there are liberal bystanders that believe their hands are tied. The majority aren't the former, the "true believers," the majority don't care enough because they aren't proletarianized enough.
yeah, there's a difference between west wing sorkinites and people who are borderline uninvolved in politics but vote blue because red is vocally unhinged in a way that blue (usually) avoids. like a lib who works at wal mart is much more reachable than a lib who works at raytheon and it's kind of ridiculous to pretend that's not the case
Yep, that's my point. Within the liberal current that votes Kamala there are the theoryless that vote her out of fear of Trump, and the souless that vote her joyfully. The former are still important to reach, the latter are a lost cause (basically all of Lemmy.world).
To be fair, you have a point there. Even I was a lib at one point, but that was way early on when I first started caring about politics, and I wasn't even an adult back then.
It's possible to change minds, but so many of them give off the vibe that they are too stubborn to ever examine the dialectic properly. Situations like these piss me off enough to the point of forgetting that minds can be changed.
Fair point! Grew out of liberalism in high-school as well.
100%, if you ever saw my Lemmy.ml account all I did with it was debatelord against libs, usually .worlders. I understand exactly what you're talking about here, my point is more that this stubborness isn't an immutable characteristic but one that changes with the Material Conditions. As they decay, the ideas they find acceptable change, and then become more susceptible. Most stubborn turbolibs are privledged, so it takes longer for them to feel the pain others do.
Tbh I miss your ml account debates. It helped assure me that I wasn't the crazy one to see at least one other person agreed with me and give good arguments. But I understand stopping for your own mental health.
I may take it back up again eventually, but right now .world is cracking down hard, they perma'd my account on Political Memes for "misinformation."
I don't intend on dropping combatting liberalism, but instead shifting it to a more effective path. .worlders are largely inconvertible right now, so the best way isn't to fight directly on their turf. Still trying to figure out what a better way to do so is, though I intend on joining FRSO once my life stabilizes more, and doing actual organizing.
On the topic of changing minds I'm personally really interested in learning more about deep canvassing since I listened to the You Are Not So Smart podcast episode about it (I think that was the one at least, cant remember who turned me onto it but it was someone here on lemmy). Gonna hunt down some training when I get a chance. My life is also pretty hectic at the moment as I'm in the middle of becoming a homeowner (!)
And yeah I don't totally understand why .world is so rabid right now. Everything they're expecting from Kamala are almost total fabrications based on the optics of either party, conveniently forgetting that Republicans get whatever they want regardless of who's president and Kamala doesn't even dare to hint at ending that dynamic. It completely lacks any and all analysis on how all these reactionary bills are actually being passed, as in, today, right now, under Biden, and Kamala's total lack of a strategy to address that or win back any ground.
They don't even agree with the platform that they are voting for, it's just, "we can move her" and "she will listen" when she is clearly demonstrating that they cannot, in fact, "move her" and she is not listening and she isn't even running on anything they want. All they have is fear of what even Biden said is fundamentally no different from his own Admin. It's pure copium. sigh.
Side note, am I the only one noticing that the "BoTh SiDeS" argument used to refer to both sides being too extreme on opposite ends of the spectrum (y'know, bullshit that served republicans/enlightened centrists before MAGA came along), and now it's being thrown back at us leftists when we point out that both parties exist on the same end of the spectrum, in service of capital and rightward momentum? Hoping someone else can finish my thought there but it feels like a complete manipulation and rewriting of that fallacy. Maybe I understood it differently when I was a lib though.
Anyways, I realize I'm kinda off the rails and preaching to the choir now but it feels like theres fewer and fewer safe spaces to vent and discuss these frustrations as the election draws near.
One of the things with liberalism is that it's based on Idealism, rather than Materialism. That's why one of the most crucial aspects of training comrades is teaching Dialectical and Historical Materialism. .world is deeply Idealist, fervently so around elections.
Ironically, leftist organizing is stronger when the dems aren't in power. We can use those periods to radicalize and instill lasting values when libs see themselves as opposition, it's sneaky optics. Radicalization also works under the dems of course, it's just a different fight.