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this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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It’s madness how they’ve been able to condition the West that we can just keep attacking Russia militarily with no consequences.
it really is
I mean, by that logic isn't it madness for Russia to assume they can attack a western ally with no consequences?
Ukraine wasn’t an “ally” until the invasion made them a useful pawn to bleed Russia.
I think it depends what we mean by "ally". One could make a quite convincing argument that Ukraine became a Western "ally" as a result of the Euromaidan coup in 2013.
Deepthroat that nazi boot
therewhere two reasons, the first and was that NATO kept saber rattleing about the Ukraine joining, however it was admitted now that that was never a serious plan, and ontop of that, and importantly they where not. NATO was also desined to be a threat to the USSR and now Russia, as can be seen that both the USSR and Russia has tried multiple times to join NATO and being declined entry.
The second and more important was the contenuing genocide the Ukrainian government was carying out in dunbas and the violation of the Minsk Accords.
Proxy and ally, gotta distinguish between those two on some level here, I would say; if only to make a point about the differences between mutual benefit and a predatory relationship. Anti-imperialist people in Russia are aligned with anti-imperialist people in China for good material reasons, but are still distinct peoples, cultures, and interests outside of that allegiance to the same anti-imperialist fight. Ukraine has no good reason to be allying with the US and throwing its people to their deaths, in order to fight Russia; its an act of destroying itself upon Russia in a way that only benefits its masters, not itself. The two have tried to broker peace before and had the west sabotage it.
Unless you want to argue allyship between western neo-nazis and Ukrainian neo-nazis, then I guess you could say there's some kind of allying? But clearly, then, not the kind of allying a person would want to be endorsing.
Ahh yes, eastern Slavic people are attacking eastern Slavic people....
Clearly a hate crime with no material context. /S
So it's not a hate crime as long as you belong to the same language family. Don't tell this guy about the Balkan wars, lmao.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/
UkraNazi bootlicker
Maybe not if you push context into a deep-space vacuum chamber.
FROM @imnotfromkaliningrad@lemmy.ml
"some of the things that i want to say here will not differentiate from the other comments in this thread, though as a russian citizen and cprf member i hope that it will offer some insight for western readers.
i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
-Banderite Collaborators parading in front of nazi officers the Banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero.
after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks.
another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and - sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”."
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”.
results of the 2004 presidential election before cia intervention. this division between neonazi northwest and pro-russian southeast is visible to this day
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich. ukrainian neonazis in 2014
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier.
if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that Zelensky has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and youll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military."
ME: Theses separatists on the border of Russia and Ukraine have been getting entire villages and settlements wiped off the map in the hunt for them. They are revolting against Ukrainian Nationalist Nazis; which have been straight up obvious via tattoos and various other insignia on them. These bombings and shellings have been directly on the border of Russia after the agreements signed.
I too would gladly intervene and not only wipe the fucking Nazis off the face of the earth but because my people are being bombed by militants with U.S support after making agreements for demilitarization and a neutral state.
FROM: @davel@lemmygrad.ml I’ve answered this before. Copypastaing myself.
Also, Ukraine really does have a fascism problem and has for a long time, and the coup government has materially supported it.
Behold, the lemm.ee banger with some mild undertones of racism ("I'm Asian so I find this part of Russians funny and can speak on them confidently..") and the assumption that Imperial Russia somehow transcended through the Soviet Union into the Federation. Some truly giga-lib shit I'd like to point out again that got you 4 seal-claps. Where does it mention that in World-Systems Theory?
The Soviet Union had some ecological disasters, that is for sure; but the conditions for Mongolians, Buryat, etc materially improved under their rule. Imperial Russia? Yeah no. There's a reason the Bolsheviks came to power. But yeah it's just all the same, right? Is that another thing you find "funny" about Russians? As for the Federation, no fucking shit. They're nationalists. Why would they think of themselves non-western but draft/view eastern-territory soldiers as more expendable? Are you listening to yourself? Most of us support the Soviet Union and learned from it's failures, support China; critically support Russia only in it's fight against the global hegemony.
Where the fuck do you get this stuff? It's a federation of multiple territories. Do you really think Moscow thinks of itself as non-western? Are you okay?
"Capitalism has grown into a world system of colonial oppression and of the financial strangulation of the overwhelming majority of the people of the world by a handful of "advanced" countries. And this "booty" is shared between two or three powerful world marauders armed to the teeth"..."who involve the whole world in their war over the sharing of their booty.”
You completely glossed over the fact that Ukraine broke two agreements on militarization and neutrality w NATO. You ignored the fact that Nazis/far-right nationalists have taken over the government entirely during that point with the aid of U.S institutions, violating the agreements in place. Separatists rise up, obviously dissatisfied with the direction of the country at the hand of right-wing nationalists who were banning the russian language (Whom a chunk of the country speaks) and banning opposition parties later on. Ukraine responds by cleansing and bombing the region entirely right on the borders of Russia right after breaking multiple agreements to which I fucking cited and gave you multiple sources on everything I am speaking right not from Davel.
It's literally not imperialism. It's interventionism, sure, but it's intervening on a literal nascent fascist state proxy on their borders who broke multiple agreements already. You ignored that as well. Who is being "academically dishonest" here especially when you should know that "imperialism" isn't when big nation fight small nation. Imperialism is better defined by the fact the United States has an economic stranglehold and hegemony on most of the third world and a military alliance with the developed nations who engage in that exploitation as well. Who has more military bases all over the world? Who controls trade? Who acts as the "World's Police"? Who has the most incarcerated people in the world?
It's not Russia, lmao.
By the fact that they're fighting against that hegemony, they are being "anti-imperialist". They aren't seeking to become a new "core" in this instance because of what I mentioned above and in what you replied to that you ignored most of. Will they in the future? Likely, but most of us support China in that sense rather than the kinda support we hand Russia. By the way, most of us critically support Russia. We don't think they're actually gonna bring a "revolution" or any bullshit like that. Most of us just support the curb-stomping of nazi into the ground as always and the decay of the "core" in entirety.
America locked in this, with Israel, with China gives less pressure on exploited nations and a chance for them to break away from U.S hegemony. We are seeing this with BRICS. Liberation becomes possible and the Empire will grow weaker without territories to extract from as the nations are allowed to develop free from extraction. As for China? That would be great if they would take the "core". No doubt they have problems, as all actually existing socialism does. I'm curious to see your criticisms of China, then.
"Lol nothing you posted would actually make me believe that is true"
You ignored 10+ sources (variety of them too; we got western media, aljazeera, grayzone, etc), two infographics (one that was showing purely the demographic split in Ukraine to back up materially what I said as the material conditions that began the outbreak/seperatists) and a personal account from someone in Russia using the good ol' "Da Russian is just making up excuses! I'm Asian so I can speak on Russians like I'm an expert, I find them funny!" (heavily paraphrasing of course but you aren't actually comprehending anything I'm saying or something is firing wrong up there) which makes me question your feelings on Russians as a whole.
"Sure, the little green men were totally ukranian separatist and not Igor girkin…" Yeah, none of this happened before "little green men" were being reported on by Western media at all. Once again, proof you didn't read what I said.
"Russia has its fair share of nationalist Bull shit too." Critical support. What is it? You seemingly cannot understand the concept. We don't support their nationalist bullshit or their government but solely their anti-imperialist actions against the largest hegemony. Second time I've repeated this.
"Lol, cleansing? There have been multiple investigations that have proved there was more violence coming from “separatist” than ukranian."
Burden of proof. I offered sources, citations, etc. Where is yours on this now? Seems like a very specific, easy to find study. Where is it? I offered multiple citations, I expect multiple. Giddy up.
"I see, so only the imperial core can do imperialism… Everything else is just sparkling intervention. So Germany didn’t do any imperialism when they took half of Europe because England was the hegemony of the day? Imperial Japan didn’t do imperialism because they were a peripheral country?"
No. You need to re-read what I said and definitely read some Lenin if you're gonna have bouts with communists. You have no idea what I'm even talking about while ignoring half of it. We don't have the same definition of "imperialism" not that trying to explain it would matter. We are in the late stage of capitalism. Colonialism and imperialism have taken on new forms. Kings and queens are dead, the church is no longer in power. There is no new "fronts" to exploit, only nations to control and extract from. The more modern history of interventions in Latin America, control of North Africa and Vietnam by the French (their actions in Africa to this day) and how long England held onto it's colonies are examples of that.
On top of that, you also are repeatedly ignoring my point that it was indeed an intervention: see below.
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/cia-ukraine-russia cia.gov/readingroom/docs/AERODYNAMIC%20%20%20VOL.%201_0113.pdf
"Within days of the February 2014 Euromaidan Revolution that culminated with the ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych and ushered in a firmly pro-Western government, the newly appointed head of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, reportedly proposed a “three-way partnership” with the CIA and MI6, the UK’s foreign intelligence service. Ukrainian security officials gradually proved their value to the U.S. by feeding the CIA intelligence on Russia, including “secret documents about the Russian Navy,” leading to the establishment of CIA bases in Ukraine to coordinate activities against Russia and various training programs for Ukrainian commandos and other elite units."
You're literally brain-dead if you think western intervention hasn't been going on in Ukraine before Maidan/leading up to Maidan and before even separatists and "little green men". Not to mention the worlds leading hegemony's intelligence agency has a fucking history of this. Literally in almost every nation. Operation Gladio, for example. Normally, there would be no proof or very little proof in declassified documents but if you're going to ignore a C.I.A asset being placed into the new government days after it's inception and also ignore the fact that they literally invited the intelligence apparatus in then I literally cannot help you understand a single thing I'm saying. You have three other stupid fucking idiots who agree with this stupid shit. Combine that with right-wing nationalist take-over that HISTORICALLY was the kind of organization the C.I.A funded (Contras, for example) you would have reasonable conditions for separatists to revolt. Even if they did do "more damage" why the fuck would I care when they're fighting against a C.I.A-backed right-wing nationalist government? Like are you listening to yourself?
"I’m not defending American imperialism… Yeah, they are imperialist, but just because they are a source of human misery doesn’t mean they have an absolute monopoly of violence. It doesn’t mean there can’t be a Nazi Germany and a Japanese empire."
They do have a monopoly on violence because America has the most military bases around the world, has the largest record of interventions/military actions (compared to the one Russia is being demonized for) and completely controls the financial levers of most of the world through the petrodollar. Russia is in Syria and Africa with small mercenary contingents/PMC groups. America has literal military bases strapped with fighters, bombers and garrisons in almost every country. Sometimes multiple. A good chunk right on the border of "domestic enemies". You saying there "can't be a nazi germany or japan" too is essentially graying out the scales of actual, material power these nations have. Russia isn't nearly as big of a threat as the United States. The United States has a far larger death toll on it than Russia has. Iraq, Afghanistan, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Latin American interventions; I can keep going! But yeah, we should really be vexing over Russia right now and condemning them instead of seeing Ukraine for what it actually is.
You're regurgitating their propaganda and taking their views established by the U.S State department. There is no "critical support". You really believe everything the U.S and Ukraine says about Russia, don't you? I have yet to see a difference.
"Only if you completely change the understanding of imperialism to the point where you don’t have a definition that isn’t just America."
Unironically what you're doing as you've seemingly never read Lenin. You're on a Marxist-Leninist board. Your definition of Imperialism is rooted, repeatedly by what you type, in the definitions of mid-1800s geopolitics. We use Lenin. It's fine not to believe in it, but I can actually ignore what you say on imperialism because you aren't even engaging with what the actual theory says. Which is something I see repeating; I will engage with you and actually talk your points down and explain my positions further. You repeatedly have gone "Nuh-uh. Nope. What sources? I don't believe them." in out-right rejection. Typical liberal left-com bullshit.
"By regurgitating their propaganda?"
What propaganda? Every nation has propaganda. Some of it is more true than others. Let me guess, you think China is a giant sweatshop of a gorillion billion people all slaving away to make iphone? Yeah, propaganda. Yeah, typical left-com position. Do you understand how their economy works? Their provincial system?
"Ukraine isn’t filled with a bunch of Nazi… Like any western nation, including Russia, there are reactionary idiots who hate communist and love fascist. That doesn’t mean the entire country is fascist neonazi, the fact that you think there is mind-blowing considering how many ukranians fought the Nazi."
My person in Christ they removed Lenin statues and replaced them with Bandera. I pointed out western intervention. notfromkaliningrad pointed out how they banned communist parties and the Russian language. There are slews of pictures, from BOTH sides of Ukrainian soldiers having Nazi tattoos beyond just "Azov". The difference between Russia and Ukraine on that part is that one group of Nazis has support from the global hegemon's intelligence agency. The other is a PMC group that got liquidated. Sure is a difference in how they treat them; not that Russia is justified either. Once again, critical support. Something you keep tossing to the side.
"Or, it just creates more and more war because people keep supporting far right governments.
I don’t think people understand that global system theory is just theory, and a theory entirely dependent on the continuation of capitalism. If you actually believe in a hegemony as it’s written in global systems theory, then it precludes the chance a country like China will ever overthrow it with anything other than another capitalist hegemony."
Because China isn't a capitalist country; the entire private industry is completely locked in and guarded by a literal vanguard party that controls the profit-seeking for the building of productive forces to serve national interests. Dictatorship of the proletariat. That is why their people are experiencing monumental increases in quality of life in the past 50-60 years compared to the United States and are leading in academic submissions/technological standards compared to the west as well as manufacturing. Their economy continues to grow and has been growing for years straight with only small hiccups. Do you know what Dengism is?
You're a fucking idiot.
Indeed, which is why they've yet to do so.
Lol, Ukraine isn't an western ally because you practice self hypnosis.
You replaced your brain with a swastika.
On what grounds is the Ukraine a western "ally", according to you? Because all I see is "proxy"
So you exclusively argue in semantics?
When you forcefully coup and overthrow a nation's elected government and install a puppet regime, you don't gain an ally, you gain an asset. NATO is an Alliance, the Warsaw pact was an alliance, the Ukraine is a proxy state. But keep making a fool of yourself.
Yanukovych wasn't a Russian asset, that's wrong and racist AF. He tactically wanted reconciliation with Russia. He wasn't an asset bootlicker like you are for UkraNazis.
You're a windowlicker.
He wanted reconciliation and mutually beneficial trade deals with Russia, you mindless drone. Last I checked, mutually beneficial requires self-respect, which you don't seem to have. Of course he would seek asylum with a country that he had an alliance with. That's like saying "you hate cops, yet you testified against your rapist!"
You fucking crackkkers always slander Russians and other Slavs as being mindless orcs, warmongers, evil subversive kittenn-stranglers and liars.