[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Yeah so you're really set on talking to yourself.

I am talking about objectification. The concept of showing someone as primarily an attractive body, as if they were nothing else.

And yes, just in star trek I mentioned instances of it, and I didn't even get started on shits like Enterprise.

Of course comic books have an extreme tendency to show unrealistic body standards, and the fact that the idea of a "normal" guy now is a bodybuilder says a lot, but that's not about objectification. When Star Trek shows Riker naked in his bathtub just for the sake of it, yeah, that is. And yes I'm against it.

I think you are so stuck in your vision of things that you just cannot admit that someone would see things differently.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

Yes and sexism is about gender, not sex.

But sure, let's continue on this bad faith argument, since my point was that I am against objectification of both men and women, so whether it is about sex and gender it's the same since it's related to neither. So how is it sexist?

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

Yeah, indeed.

Still waiting for you to explain how something is sexist when it's not related to gender btw.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago

Her outfit matters as it makes the character incoherent. No one in the show wondered why a battle robot would wear heels. She didn't say why either. As such, her character already doesn't make sense. It is heels and a boob armor, it could have been a broom up her ass, either way it doesn't make sense and it's not about "her looks" but about the implications of the character deciding to wear something like this. Borgs are supposed to be ultra-rational, this makes her character stupidly incoherent.

And how is the fact that a kid is shown as being sexualized and romanced by adults characters about her looks? My point was that she's a kid mentally, and yet portrayed sexually, how is that about looks? Of course, the underlying meta explanation is that she was just a sex object put in the show for her looks, but my point was precisely that characters in the show, since they don't know that, are apparently fine with dating a kid. This is a horrible character, no matter her looks.

Overall, most of my points were not about her looks, but they do relate to it since the character was made badly just so that it could be objectified. To try to make you understand, her looks are not the problem, but the main reason that pushed the writers to make a bad, incoherent, shitty character. And of course I didn't even start digging into the things you mentioned because they are too many and less bad than what I mentioned, but yes, her actions and choices are incoherent, her relationships weird and bad and basically child abuse, and her performance was pretty abysmal. I just focused on the initial, core problem of the character, which is that it was written lazily because they didn't care about it making sense, about picking a proper actress, or about thinking about the moral implications of their choices, as all that they wanted was an object-woman.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 21 hours ago

Yeah so you're ignoring most of what I'm saying on purpose.

I explained multiple times why the looks of seven, on top of being pure objectification which has negative consequences outside of the universe of the show, also have a pretty bad impact within the show, making it a bad character both from a meta and in-lore perspective.

I even said that if everyone was dressed like her it wouldn't have the same impact (even though it would be far from fixing the character).

If you're not going to debate in good faith there is no point, have a good day.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

I am not attacking the character because of looks, but because of intention.

Seven is wearing heels and a boob armor as an objectification. The reason this is more significant than, I don't know, some random action movie crap objectifying women, is that star trek (and I would say, especially voyager) was not overall sexual, but they went out of their way to make a character that is overly sexual compared to both the tone of the show and the concept of the borg.

My criticisms were not about her looks, but about the goal of her looks and the implications of them. As I said, it is not only gross to try to make a character just to make people get hard while watching the show, it is also incoherent with the universe of the show (as before, borg and heels don't make sense) and extremely immoral (again, the character is shown as having the mind of a kid, not understanding sexual matters as you would expect from a kid, and yet the show is fine showing her as a sexual object).

The people responsible for the character are pieces of shit, the character is an abomination, and the looks are part of the package and a big symptom of why the character is bad. On their own, her looks wouldn't be the problem, if it didn't raise a lot of problems. As an example, if star trek was showing all characters wear overly sexual outfits like seven's, then this would be a different matter; but this is not the case. TNG was a bit like that sometimes, with Picard and Riker's pajamas that open down to the knees and weird stretching yoga sessions, and as such it's hard to specifically pinpoint a character, as it's just a general ambiance. Voyager doesn't have that.

Also, you keep on talking about sexism, but complaining about objectification is not even related to gender so I struggle seeing how that even fits. Objectification is always bad, no matter the gender, it doesn't make sense. The difference with seven is that her objectification wasn't a "once in a while" thing, it was permanent, as it was the whole purpose of the character, and it's not like the writing surrounding her saves anything.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

This logic makes no sense.

Seven is a symbol of sexism by the fact that she was just here to be a sex object. I dislike the character (partly, as I mentioned there are a lot of reasons to hate this shitty character) because it is the typical product of sexism where the woman is supposed to wear hills and show her boobs, even if she's a braindead robot.

I am judging the character by the purpose of it. There is no person that I'm judging, I'm attacking the concept and the people who made it.

Also, I struggle how it is sexist considering that it's unrelated to gender. Harry Kim is an equally bad character that was just put here because the actor was elected sexiest man of the year or some other stupid shit like that; the difference being that he was not put as a central character, and didn't completely destroy the coherence of the show.

On a side note, I really don't understand what is the goal of trying to say that pointing out sexism is sexist. You'd rather have people not point out anything and let sexism happen freely? Now that sounds sexist.

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago

So not liking a character that was just here to be an objectified woman is sexist?

How the fuck do you even reach such a stretch?

The character of seven was not just an objectified, sexual thing, she was also debatably a kid (mentally) being sexualized as, let's not forget it, her individual growth was halted when she got assimilated.

And also, I'm waiting for anyone to try to explain to me why a borg would have heels and a boob-armor, which is obviously absurdly nonsensical and showing that she's just here to make a bunch of creeps get boners.

If I had to describe voyager, I would probably end up saying "an okay show, if you manage to pretend seven doesn't exist"

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago

Et ils peuvent bien aller se faire foutre.

Défendre des pedos c'est ok, mais par contre deux hommes qui s'embrassent c'est horrible ?

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

C'est con ce titre

[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 107 points 1 year ago
[-] Solumbran@lemmy.world 129 points 1 year ago

Trump's 24-hours war solving: "Ukraine is now part of Russia"

5
submitted 2 years ago by Solumbran@lemmy.world to c/france@jlai.lu

J'ai découvert un peu plus en détail la vision de la pédophilie en France.

Il semblerait qu'en plus d'être à la source d'un tas d'idées pédo, la France héberge et récompense tout un tas de pedophiles connus, coupables et qui en sont fiers.

Je pensais que Polanski était une (horrible) exception, mais non, et c'est loin d'être le pire (Matzneff vient en tête, je vous invite à lire sa page wikipédia qui ressemble à un roman d'horreur, cette merde écrit des livres où il se vante de ses viols et reçoit des récompenses littéraires en échange).

En bref : c'est quoi cette merde ? Pourquoi le "pays de la démocratie" (mon cul) défend les pires horreurs et les pires ordures, sans aucune réaction de qui que ce soit ? Et pas d'excuses à la "c'est la loi blablabla", la loi ne tolère pas l'apologie de la pédophilie, et si la loi défend ces sous-merdes alors il faut changer la loi immédiatement.

Quoi le putain?

-25
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by Solumbran@lemmy.world to c/startrek@startrek.website

I've been watching the various Star Trek shows for a while now, and while not finished I saw most of them, I believe. And I cannot shake off the feeling that the messages given by these shows, especially (and almost exclusively) recent ones are pushing horrible morals that most people seem to not care about.

Slavery

I posted before, in the middle of my watching of Enterprise, that the show was supporting slavery because of the Cogenitor episode. Many comments disagreed, some even saying that they don't remember anything supporting slavery at all in the show. That was before I watched more. The show contains a full episode that is just about showing that:

  • Sex slaves are not only acceptable, they're "sexy" and cool and negotiating with slavers is a good thing

  • Sex trafficking of individuals groomed since they are born into being sex slaves is the fault of the victims for "seducing" men ???

How is this show not fine with human trafficking at this point? Is all that you need to avoid controversy, to paint the slaves in green? I still cannot comprehend the lack of reaction on this show. Add to that the frequent crimes of war by Archer and you have a nice cocktail of humanity's finest horror.

Section 31

This is also something that seems absurd to me. When it first appeared, it was already a gestapo/kgb-like group that ignores the concept of democracy, laws, and justice - in other words a horrible group - but its existence as a starfleet element was blurry. But with modern shows, they keep on bringing it back, and directly saying that it is supported by starfleet, and a good thing, or at least a necessary one.

The thing is that what made starfleet supposedly admirable was, if not every single individual's morals, the morality of their concept, their laws, their structure. Having section 31 be condoned by starfleet transforms starfleet from "utopian future of humanity" (which it was supposed to be) to "dictatorship that pretends to be a democracy but supports crimes of war and above-the-law groups". In other words, it destroys the concept of starfleet.

Discriminations, sexism, and other shitty ideas, morals and behaviours

Now this one is maybe more blurry and subjective, but it is scattered all across, nonstop.

Let's start chronologically

DS9

For this show, the constant misogyny is nothing hard to see. But they still went out of their way to put some nasty things here and there.

The episode with Quark "becoming" a woman was interesting. Quark discovers a different point of view, gains insight and empathy, that's nice! Until the end of the episode directly says "no nevermind, he was like that because of hormones, and was just an overly emotional woman because of that". Because after all, women are hysterical, right? .

Other than that, we have the toxic relationship between Keiko and O'Brian, the toxic relationship between Dax and Worf, the toxic relationship between Odo and Kira, the toxic relationship between Sisco and his wife, Jake who constantly shows that when a teen boy is targeted by pedophiles, the teen is both responsible for it, and liking it (one second, I need to throw up in a corner), etc.

And of course there is the rest, between Cisco crimes against humanity, Bashir (that's all I'll say, nothing else needed), and the weird pro-religious message that doesn't make sense.

Enterprise

We already talked about their view of child/human trafficking which I think gives the tone of the show.

But of course that's not enough, so let's put some sexual scenes about the women in particular, rape scenes with TPol because who doesn't like rape culture, Malcolm "PoS" Reed talking like a creep about "bums", Reed and Tucker with their "haha lol, these alien women are ugly because you can't tell if they are women or not" and other toxic masculinity scenes, etc. Oh and I almost forgot about the sex scene between teen siblings that serve no other purpose than to show teens having incestuous sex.

Picard

What do we have here, more weird sibling sexual scenes, people getting manipulated mentally and sexually to extract information, murderers who get away with it because betraying the federation and killing innocents is fine if you're a scenario character (reminds me of something else...AhemelnorAhem)...

Oh, and I almost forgot the amazing scene with a white Picard in his white British empire colonist outfit, going on the planet of the tan refugees who hate the federation, kicks everything around and tries to show that he's the boss. I guess this show regrets colonies too, huh.

Discovery

Now I didn't finish this one yet, and it's hard.

We have klingons that start off as a weird racist stereotype of africans seen by colonialists from a century ago: black skin, tribal armors, weird "foreign" language that the show intentionally refuses to translate through the UT, and when they speak english it's with a strong guttural accent. And they're barbaric, scary cannibals who fight with sticks and knives, and are a bunch of disorganised tribes, with weird magic rituals that allow them to do weird brainwashing. I'm almost surprised they don't carry voodoo dolls while dancing around a bonfire. The fact that people describe this show as "woke" is funny to me.

We have very explicit rape and gore torture scenes, for what purpose, I don't know.

We have people forgiven of murder because it wasn't their mind, but then it is and everyone is fine with it.

And then there's more section 31 shit.

There's also the vision of asylum in this show that basically says "we grant asylum whenever we want, not based on the situation but on personal preferences", with Georgiou granting asylum despite the prime directive, and then Pike refusing asylum because of it. It's surprising that starfleet would allow that, but at least it's not Archer-level, sending people to death then blaming the ones who tried to help them.

SNW

As far as I remember, nothing as bad as the rest here. The take on eugenics and "augmented" individuals is really absurd though, showing starfleet hating on Una is fine because her species is augmented (like the denobulans who are in starfleet though, no?), but the stupid security officer who has DNA augmentations from a crazy evil dictator engineered to be violent and crazy, is allowed without any issue.

All of them

One thing that I struggle understanding is the constant of racist stereotypes. They're everywhere, because all the shows use them to define their characters.

Keiko wants to eat her traditional food in a kimono, Georgiou wears a big kimono-like dress that would barely fit in a Mulan movie, Elnor is a ridiculous samurai-ninja with the fitting outfit, etc. As if in hundreds of years, after earth is united and mixed with hundreds of alien species, "cultures" would not evolve and mix but instead go back to being very split apart and caricatural.

P.S.

I'm not saying that the shows are shit, but that I am worried about the lack of discussions concerning all those subjects. Star Trek is supposed to be progressive and show a better version of humanity, one that evolved and grew, and yet morals seem to not be a consideration of the shows anymore.

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Solumbran

joined 2 years ago