Oh look. Yet another post demanding things from a volunteer-based community without actually volunteering their own time to work on solving the problem they're insisting needs solving.
I'm sure these demands will totally make a difference in ways that putting their time into actually writing code wouldn't.
And that attitude is why adoption will remain low
Just saying, not my experience. I have used linux for over 25 years and nontechnical users in my family have also for almost 20 years. By in large it has worked just fine.
The big issue is Linux is not the OS that is supplied when people go to the store and buy something (well except for Android and Chromebooks which are Linux and are popular). It is also not the system or have the apps their friends use. It also does not have the huge supply, support, and word of mouth ecosystem. Buying hardware especially addons is confusing. Getting support is hard unless you have friends that use. Buying Linux preinstalled often costs more. Change too is hard and there has to be some driver and for most people there is not.
Or users could maybe learn how to do things without having their hands held and treated like babies every step of the way; or at least how to search for information to find what they need... 🤷🏻♂️
search for information when Google intentionally lies to you and hides results to keep you on their site looking at ads longer …
A person can only specialize in a small number of things.
I’m happy to learn about computers, but when it comes to, say, cars, I have no desire to learn. If I have a car problem, I don’t have the knowledge of how to even look up a problem.
In today world, you don't need to specialize in something to fix basic issues. Simple online search will help you with most basic issues You encounter which is probably 60-70% issues most people have with cars, computers or etc.
I don't blame people that they can't recompile a kernel, applying a patch to fix some random issue. But I blame people that didn't want to spend 30s on searching how to fix their minor issue like for example checking execute permission for appimage, Search engines today even tell you how to do it in a small AI window on top of the page.
Internet really helped people to gain a basic knowledge in a matter of seconds and yet they still don't want it
Just built a new PC literally this weekend. WiFi mouse and Bluetooth drivers did not work out of the box. I had to spend hours searching through what little info exists out there tangentially related to my problem to find:
WiFi drivers were fixed in kernel 6.10, which fortunately Mint let's you upgrade to 6.11 at this time with relative ease.
Bluetooth drivers do not appear to have been fixed, but I might have a shot if I switch over to a rolling release distro and relearn everything I'm used to from using Debian-based distros for years. Dongle is on order, but I don't love having to have 2 bluetooth devices.
It's unclear if mouse drivers have been fixed in the kernel, but I was able to find a nice set of drivers/controller on github which fixed some mouse problems but only if i used their experimental branch and it did not work with my wireless adapter. Very fortunately I had an old wireless adapter from a mouse from the same brand that was able to close the loop, but that was just dumb luck.
By EOD today I should have everything I want working, but it wasn't "30s" of searching - to your point, 60-70% of problems may be solvable that way, but having 1/3 of your problems require technical expertise is not going to bring Linux out of the hobbyist domain.
Note: this is not a complaint against Linux, just a statement of fact. These things have gotten a lot better over the years, and things get easier to find as the community grows and these struggles get discussed more openly, but there's still lots of challenges out there that take more than a 30s search.
They could. But you and I both know they won't because most people don't care about anything beyond 'make the magic box work so I can do my job / play my game / etc.'
The vast majority of people have no experience installing an OS and likely never will.
The typical user uses whatever is preinstalled when the get the hardware.
My father-in-law wrecked his windows pc with malware over and over so I bought him a Wow PC https://www.mywowcomputer.com/ and he loves it. I don't think he has any idea its running linux.
How do updates work with WOW computers? Or does the software just never get updated? Or do you just update the computer for him every now and then? What distro is this using underneath?
The updates are automatic. They seem to have rolled their own desktop environment. Not sure which distro. The main selling point was that I don't need to maintain it for him. I am registered as his "tech buddy" so they contact me if something needs to be done hands on. In 3 years no issues/calls so far.
From the website landing page :
New programs and updates are provided automatically for the life of your WOW! Computer.
From https://www.mywowcomputer.com/open-source/
Distro is based on tiny core
The source files can be found by following 3 links deep to https://www.telikin.com/source/ doesn't look like they include their frontend though, which might be proprietary, idk.
(you lazy bastard /j)
Yeah, I was just thinking this needs a lot more upfront info. I mean, kudos for the site that harkens back to the 90's infomercial era and keeping it comfortable for those generations, but a page with some specs and actual info would go nicely with that.
Lol only $1300
Honestly I think the bigger barrier is the BIOS. The button to get to the boot menu is different on every motherboard.
Didn't watch the video... but the premise "The biggest barrier for the new Linux user isn't the installer" is exactly why Microsoft is, sadly, dominating the end-user (not servers) market.
What Microsoft managed to do with OEMs is NOT to have an installer at all! People buy (or get, via their work) a computer and... use it. There is not installation step for the vast majority of people.
I'm not saying that's good, only that strategy wise, if the single metric is adoption rate, no installer is a winning strategy.
Most people who go out and buy a computer doesn't understand what an OS is. If Linux was standard when you bought a PC, it would be the dominating OS. I mean, you could switch the OS to Linux on the computers and I think most people wouldn't realise when they buy it lol
Indeed, so my argument is that sure a "better" installer might change a small fraction of the marketshare, say 1%, but it's not enough to change significantly, say 10% or even reach parity.
An interesting example is the Steam Deck coming with Linux installed. Sure there are few people who do (by choice) install Windows alongside Linux but AFAIK the vast majority do not. That's IMHO particularly interesting on a topic, gaming, where Windows has been traditionally the #1 reason people picked a specific OS.
Doing dual install is advanced. No nontechnical user should consider it.
I think they would. I tried Linux again for the first time in 10+ years and kept running into issues like my sound would randomly die or change to headset, when I tried to update the video driver it hard- locked the system, etc. I just installed Ubuntu the other day and whenever it boots the monitor just goes into standby with no signal. It's been nothing but trouble, and I have pretty normal hardware. Most people aren't going to know or care how to deal with those problems. As far as Linux has come, it's still not ready for widespread adoption by most people on the 'it just works' front.
TBH do you actually think that there's some chance that nobody is testing these releases and this is happening to a massive number of people?
I've installed linux countless times on a SHITLOAD of computers and never faced any of these problems, realistically, you're very unlucky, and these sorts of things happen with windows all the time too.
I'm not saying your issues don't matter, but unless you have statistics that back you up, you can't say "it just works" to either OS.
I've had more of an "It just works" experience with linux literally hundreds of times.
Same issue though. If manufacturers actually had linux preinstalled, they would ensure compatibility. This isn't a windows/Linux problem, this is a manufacturer/default os problem.
I am amazed by what you say though. I've had 0 hardware problems installing Linux on many different machines in the past 5 years. All the incompatibility issues of old are gone by my perspective
Linux definitively does dominate the end user market. You just mean the end user desktop/laptop market.
I agree though that preinstallation is the biggest deal. The fact that people have to install Linux at all is the problem. The installer itself is already 100x better than the Windows one, but that's not enough.
Not to mention it means manufacturers ensure all the hardware is compatible, drivers etc are installed and working, which is why windows users feel it works better.
If you mean unrootable Googled Android then I don't consider that Linux. If you mean something else please clarify.
its corporate locked down linux, but its linux alright.
It's the Linux kernel. Android is inarguably a flavour of Linux.
Even then those who have to installers don't really have a good experience with distros of wide market share (narrowing to Linux distros only), especially with whatever fresh hell Calamares is. (It doesn't even support LVM or just installation with specified mounts points if you already set up your partition layout!)
Seriously, I've had better experience with the installer Ubuntu Server uses.
It does "support" LVM, but with a wacky/hacky workaround and that's a real shame !
Also, there is some talking on github on how they will probably completely drop LVM in the near futur... That's not what someone should expect from a Linux installer!
Also, there is some talking on github on how they will probably completely drop LVM in the near futur... That's not what someone should expect from a Linux installer!
It's a shitshow. Looking at their repo's issues list has lots of noise, but the worst of them is that the LVM issue has been open for over a year now. Sure, open source, anyone's free to work on it by why would distros use such a feature incomplete installer?
well now I understand why is suse transitioning to a different installer instead of improving it
Using LVM is advanced. No nontechnical user should consider.
Not really an "Average Windows/MacOS user will run into" issue but most power users would run into it
I don't think that's true. Administration tools could build on top of it, like snapshotting, which even if it does not work the best that way, it will work. and that can just run in the background, automatically, just like it does with snapper on btrfs now on some systems.
Yeah I love linux, but it's user experience , while light years ahead of what I used in the late nineties and early aughts, is still clunky compared to others.
That being said, honestly most of linux's issues are GUI related, when it comes to going mainstream. The capabilities and efficiency are far ahead of windows and mac os but most users don't care.
Directions, examples and mundane work should all be seamless for mainstream consumers.
A good rule of thumb is, " if a user has to look for it to fix it, or open a terminal window to install software, then it won't be accepted fully.
Mainstream users don't want to type commands in a prompt. Why does everyone think windows blew DOS out of the water in sales? It wasn't because DOS wasn't working. It was, hell early windows ( I started on 3.11 so that's my limit of knowledge ) still used DOS.
So bottom line. Start putting the non tech consumer first or we'll forever be stuck in this "almost mainstream" category forever.
This exactly.
I enjoy the level of control I have on my Linux machine but I spend about 40% of my time in CLI.
I recently had to troubleshoot a windows machine, and the lack of control was frustrating but every step for that problem was GUI-centric. Everyday people don’t want to remember commands so they can set up their browser and word processor. They want (to them) simple and straightforward.
To us it’s a low bar, and most of us are from the generations that dreamt of a predominantly tech-literate society, but that’s not reality. We have to meet them where they are, and if they want to learn beyond that then we welcome them in.
Super glad you understand my point. it honestly is the one thing holding us back I believe
Idk mainstream users should learn to learn and empower themselves with knowledge.
The enshitification of hardware and software by constantly catering to the dumbest of people is hurting everybody.
is still clunky compared to others.
Wut?
So bottom line. Start putting the non tech consumer first or we'll forever be stuck in this "almost mainstream" category forever.
I'm okay with that.
"Mainstream" users are getting stupider. Even Windows is to difficult for them. They want the Apple walled garden with a subscription plan for their devices and no permissions to do anything that a corporation doesn't want you to do.
Fuck. That.
So. We just encourage ignorance and security threats so we.. can.. be .. better than them? I don't think that's the healthiest outlook ...
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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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