Putin Still Holds All the Cards in Ukraine, With No Reason to Fold (www.bloomberg.com)

submitted 2 days ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[+] direwolf@lemmy.ml -8 points 1 day ago

This is what the EU should propose to Putin. Russia will withdraw from all land it seized from Ukraine after the 2022 invasion. NATO would be dissolved and replaced with a European alliance. Ukraine and Canada would be permitted to join but not the US. If Putin doesn't accept the proposal, the UK and France would send troops to Ukraine.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This is delusional. It's not a personal vendetta against the USA. Nuclear Europe fielding military in Ukraine is a red line for Russian national security. Until people understand the reality of security, you're all going to be blathering idiots.

There are two positions on security - it's either I am secure while you are not or it's we're both secure. Mutual security is the only way that peers can engage sustainably. Assymetrical security cannot be sustained by peers.

Ukraine being a non-militarized buffer between Europe and Russia is critical to Russian national security. Any arrangement where Ukraine is militarily aligned with the rest of Europe is an asymetrical security situation where Europe has security at the expense of Russia losing security.

It will never be sustainable.

Russia will either establish Ukraine as fully demilitarized with its constant oversight for the next several decades, as a result of the violation of trust that the US and EU committed, or Russia will occupy Ukraine. These are the only two options that establish mutual security and thus are the only sustainable options. Anything else is an escalation by Europe.

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml -3 points 1 day ago

Ukraine has to be assured that it would be protected if Russia attacks again. Another option would be for the UN to be obligated to protect Ukraine if Russia attacks again.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

Still delusional. Russia has no interest in attacking Ukraine. Learn the history. Every single Russian intervention into Ukraine has been in response to Western meddling.

You want the Ukrainian people to be safe, get the West the fuck out of it

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml -1 points 18 hours ago

I already said that another option would be for the UN to be obligated to protect Ukraine if Russia attacks again. It would then be unnecessary for Ukraine to be in any alliance.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 17 hours ago

The UN doesn't have sufficient military to do such a thing. They would need make an alliance to be strong enough against Russia, or it would have to the be the US. This is what we have now, it's called NATO, and the point is that NATO advanced on Russia. So sure, you can say the UN will enlist all the NATO countries to fight Russia, but only in defense, and no one in Europe would agree to that.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 day ago

Why would Russia agree to that?

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 day ago

Russia would gain Crimea, the US military would no longer be in Europe, sanctions against Russia would be lifted, and with UK and French troops in Ukraine, Russia would not be able to conquer Ukraine.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 day ago

Russia already has Crimea.

But if you mean a full withdrawal of the US from Europe, then they would probably take my. US would never agree to it though

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 day ago

The US would withdrawal fully if it meant the end of the war in Ukraine.

[-] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 8 points 20 hours ago

The US would never give up its vassals in Europe for a single country.

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml -4 points 18 hours ago

The US has already said it will start withdrawing troops from Europe and Hegseth considers China a bigger threat than Russia.

[-] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 4 points 18 hours ago

You think they’re going to close all 38 of their bases across all of Europe? That would be a big strategic break from full spectrum dominance, which is US policy, and part of the plan to contain the growth of China.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 21 hours ago

I find that incredibly implausible.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 day ago

There is zero chance of Russia withdrawing from the current territories at this point. Also, why would Russia give shit if France and UK sent troops to Ukraine. Russian army is at around 1.5 million troops, while the EU could scrape up a few thousand troops at best. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-army-troops-ukraine-defence-b2701635.html

Meanwhile, the US provides the bulk of NATO accounting for over 70% of arms and majority of the troops. Without the US, there is no NATO. Anybody who understands basic arithmetic can see how absurd this whole notion is.

[+] direwolf@lemmy.ml -9 points 1 day ago

Numbers alone don't count. During World War II, Germany could have conquered Russia if it didn't have to fight the powerful US in the west. That's the reason Putin might accept the plan. Without the US in Europe, Putin might think he can conquer Europe.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

You think Putin believes Russia can conquer Europe? No wonder all of your analysis sounds cracked.

[-] Blursty@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago

The US were in ww2 now?

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 day ago

Germany could have conquered Russia

Germany was already losing when the US entered the war

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 day ago

The alternate reality you inhabit is fascinating. Meanwhile, here's what a book produced by US military has to say on the subject.

The fact that you're historically illiterate explains why you have ideas that have no basis in reality. Maybe read a book for once in your life.

[+] direwolf@lemmy.ml -9 points 1 day ago

By 1944, Russia had fully recovered from the German invasion and was a powerful military. That was not the case in 1942. When Hitler launched his 1942 summer offensive, he had to keep units in the west to repel any invasion of France by the Western allies.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 day ago

You can read the whole book, USSR was the main force fighting the nazis and did far more than all the allies combined. Your historical illiteracy is frankly an embarrassment.

[+] direwolf@lemmy.ml -10 points 1 day ago

I know that but the Western allies kept Hitler from concentrating his forces against Russia. Also, the West through Arctic convoys gave Russia supplies. Finally, it was the West which bombed Germany not Russia.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 day ago

The reality is that US companies continued to work with the nazis well into the war. And as the book I linked explains in great detail, USSR would have won the war regardless. Your whole premise here is nonsense born out of sheer ignorance. Instead of making inane comments on here and wasting people's time, go read a book and learn about the subject you're attempting to debate.

[-] pelikan@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 day ago

I don't understand why this was downvoted, if such a proposal had been made in 2022 during first Istanbul talks, it could have prevented another three years of meatgrinder. As during those talks Russia openly discussed getting troops back to pre-2022 border as possible option, and European alliance instead of NATO (i.e. no US troops and nukes in Europe) is also offer that is hard to ignore. So after some negotiation it might become a deal; sadly noone offered that.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

Because the idea of a European alliance is nonsense. NATO IS the European alliance. And NATO's strategy for defending against Russia is a nuclear killchain with one critical position in Ukraine. What would a European alliance do? Not defend against Russia? Or defend against Russia in a different way? Would they do that while still in NATO or would they have to dismantle NATO first and then build this alliance?

It's nonsense. You can't just make a new transnational military that is capable of defending against Russia by just saying "European Alliance".

[-] direwolf@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 day ago

The difference is that Trump doesn't seem interested defending Europe. The EU should use this to bargain with Putin regarding Ukraine.

this post was submitted on 18 May 2025

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