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submitted 1 month ago by Pro@programming.dev to c/world@lemmy.world

There are around 7,000 languages spoken in the world, but that number is shrinking. Unesco estimates that half could disappear by the end of the century. So how are languages lost, and what does that mean for the people who speak them?

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[-] FaceDeer@fedia.io 16 points 1 month ago

So how are languages lost, and what does that mean for the people who speak them?

If the language stops being spoken then there are no people who speak them, and asking what something means for those nonexistent people is kind of weird.

I'm thinking that the loss of distinct languages in active use is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It means more people can communicate with each other more widely. By all means document these disappearing languages as much as possible before they're gone, but there's likely a good reason most of them are disappearing.

[-] 3abas@lemm.ee 6 points 1 month ago

If the language stops being spoken then there are no people who speak them, and asking what something means for those nonexistent people is kind of weird.

Just because you have none who speaks your language, doesn't mean you're dead or don't exist. Language is lost in pockets, not all at once. Communities dwindle until it's just a few, then practicality of life makes them use their language less so language can even die while multiple speakers still engage in dialogue, of that dialogue isn't in that language.

[-] FaceDeer@fedia.io 2 points 1 month ago

If there's someone who speaks the language then it isn't lost yet.

I suppose it's interesting to muse about what it means for the last person to speak a language before it becomes lost, but that's still just one person so it's kind an abstract, academic concern.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I suppose it’s interesting to muse about what it means for the last person to speak a language before it becomes lost,

I speak -- badly, but I'm fluent with my limited vocabulary -- Low Saxon. Fuck I can do with it but embarrass supermarket cashiers whose skills are worse to non-existent. I could pass someone who knows the language perfectly, a true native speaker without the burden of generational gap in native proficiency, be asked for directions -- and never know we could have talked in Low Saxon because the default language is the local Standard German.

It means that a mode of expression is dying. For us, as a people, it means that the natural expression of culture, of our modes and habits of interaction, is diluted due to the overwhelming influence of Standard German.

All this talk about "probably deserves to die", "languages can't be lost before there's no people who speak it", whatnot... point of interest: Do you happen to be monolingual.

[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 month ago

I suppose it's interesting to muse about what it means for the last person to speak a language before it becomes lost, but that's still just one person so it's kind an abstract, academic concern.

There is nothing academic about it, this is as much a question of humanism as there is.

[-] 3abas@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago
[-] nyamlae@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

there's likely a good reason most of them are disappearing.

This belief is called the "just world fallacy". Sadly, the world is not just.

Most of these languages are disappearing due to colonialism. People's traditional ways of living have been forcibly upended by capitalists and state governments, who have seized the commons around the world, and by colonialist policies such as residential schools. No longer able to support themselves using their traditional ways of living, people have been mde into wage slaves who must compete on the market to survive. That means using English or another widely-spoken language. Indigenous languages are much less useful to capitalists, and so gradually they wither and die.

We are at risk of killing 95% of the world's languages, on top of the incalculable cultural damage that goes along with all of this, just to prop up a single way of being: liberal nation states. It is reprehensible beyond words.

[-] Irelephant@lemm.ee 4 points 1 month ago

Gaeilge (Irish) is barely spoken because of Britian banning it, if people give up on speaking it it means a massive loss of an important piece of Irish culture.

There's a saying: tír gan teanga, tír gan anam, meaning a country without a language is a country without a soul. A native language to a country can be an integral part of its culture.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

I’m thinking that the loss of distinct languages in active use is not necessarily a bad thing overall. It means more people can communicate with each other more widely.

I don't think I understand what you're trying to get at, here. Are you implying that it's not possible for people to speak more than one language?

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Surely less languages means the chance of overlapping a language with someone else goes up?

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

Not really because there's only a limited set of Lingua Francas and, say, Mali turning away from French in favour of e.g. English won't make French disappear.

[-] stepan@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 month ago
[-] FaceDeer@fedia.io 11 points 1 month ago

By sheer coincidence, I just came across a thread on Reddit about a system that's been invented for training AI speech models on languages when there's not enough actual recorded examples to serve as training data. Speech Instruction Training Without Speech for Low Resource Languages. ArXiv link to the paper for those who want to bypass Reddit, though the reddit link also has links to the actual models and code used.

Relevant to this thread.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

I don't get why people are up in arms over lost languages or lost cultures, unless of course if it's due to genocide.
But USA was inhabited by people from alol over the world, but it's damned practical that they almost all speak English.
Having as many languages as we have is a mess, and speaking the same language is a clear advantage for everybody.

Regarding culture, people don't lose their culture in general, they adopt other cultures over time.
Just like people have evolved biologically over time, so do we also evolve culturally, but the cultural evolution is much much faster.

And it's fucking great that cultures evolve, because that's the way to get rid of religion and other traits of our cultures that are detrimental to in general.

[-] spirinolas@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

I can't believe I just read this...and I can't believe so many people upvoted this chauvinistic take on language.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You should know that I come from a country of only 6 million people, so it's definitely not because I'm chauvinistic about my own first language. So calling it that is pretty stupid.
But on the contrary because I know first hand the many problems of coming from a small language.
Obviously in my country most people speak more languages than our native language, because you frigging have to, if you want to know anything, or just watch movie. Or have cultural exchanges outside our own country.

The romanticizing of small languages is idiotic.
What is your argument for wanting people to not have the privilege of belonging to a bigger language group?

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[-] nyamlae@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

I don't get why people are up in arms over lost languages or lost cultures, unless of course if it's due to genocide.

Which it often is, as I'm sure you know. We are in an awful situation for Indigenous languages.

Regarding culture, people don't lose their culture in general, they adopt other cultures over time.

These are the same thing. People don't just lose their culture and become cultureless. They lose their culture as they adopt another culture, but this process is largely driven by colonialism.

Just like people have evolved biologically over time, so do we also evolve culturally, but the cultural evolution is much much faster.

"Evolve"? Do you think European culture is superior to Indigenous cultures? We are destroying the planet in record time, and you are talking about "cultural evolution"? This is the language of 19th century racists who were blind to the nuances of culture. Different cultures are different ways of being in the world, each with its own pros and cons.

And it's fucking great that cultures evolve, because that's the way to get rid of religion and other traits of our cultures that are detrimental to in general.

Unfortunately, the cultures that have replaced Indigenous cultures around the world have largely been bigoted Christian cultures. Language loss is not caused by cultures becoming healthier -- it is caused by unhealthy cultures killing other cultures.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

I’m a skeptic on this as well but wow you completely dismissed the entire question of loss of cultural diversity and that is a little too far for me. I think you may also be ignoring that humans are built to speak 3-4 languages without strain, and so having just one is unnecessary, and for people to have alternates is not necessarily harmful.

[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

For any pair of languages there are plenty of subjects where one is clearly inferior to another.

That's why they have evolved in the first place.

because that’s the way to get rid of religion and other traits of our cultures that are detrimental to in general.

Religion is biological, not cultural. The cultural part associated with it being destroyed doesn't change human nature.

And leads to uglier religions.

Having as many languages as we have is a mess, and speaking the same language is a clear advantage for everybody.

A language and a piece of knowledge are in symbiosis, you can't just "translate" everything without losing half the meaning.

If your only language is English, then please don't make statements like this.

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[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

But USA was inhabited by people from alol over the world, but it's damned practical that they almost all speak English.
Having as many languages as we have is a mess, and speaking the same language is a clear advantage for everybody.

Only if your understanding of human language is that it is simply a tool for life, not an expression of life or intelligence itself.

No you are catastrophically wrong, but most people agree with you all the same and damn us all for that.

When we all speak exactly the same language, that will be by definition the moment we have reached a point of no return in the destruction of our own species.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I disagree, if we use English as an example, there are clear differences between the English spoken in NY and Texas even though both are within USA, and there are differences between England and Scotland, these differences are even within the same country. The advantage is that the understanding of a concept framed in one of these regions, can spread more easily across all English language regions.
Which is probably a major reason English is one of the richest languages we have. On the downside it's also a mess, but it enables you and I to communicate, while a 100 years ago there would be near zero chance I would understand any English at all!
So you can't deny the very clear advantage of being able to communicate and share ideas.

not an expression of life or intelligence itself.

Of course any language is an expression of life intelligence and defining abstract ideas. It's not just an expression of it, but also how we think. Language is a tool to both form and express our thoughts.

So what exactly is your point? Because I don't get it from your other post either.

[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The advantage is that the understanding of a concept framed in one of these regions, can spread more easily across all English language regions.

Which is probably a major reason English is one of the richest languages we have.

I know this is how you think, this is the rigid terms in which computer programmers, engineers and people bound up in totalitarian thinking in some form or another ALWAYS frame things and honestly I understand, it is very similar to how to very effectively tackle a technical problem.... but this is not a technical problem this is a question of life.

You will never come up with the concept or learn how to explain it to people without the diversity, intelligence, creativity and new ideas that a diversity of languages and really everything brings to the table in the first place and the person you are speaking to won't be intelligent enough to understand in a meaningful way either. You are looking at the inefficiencies of diversity and dismissing the stability, growth and innovation it brings in a way that worries me because I see the ideology everywhere.

How is you argument fundamentally different than just rephrasing a totalitarian argument in terms of language, "It would be better and more efficient if we only had ONE LANGUAGE, ONE GOVERNMENT, ONE WAY". No it wouldn't, it would be efficient at conveying simplistic, empty instructions across an utterly broken populace unable to think for themselves in any meaningful way which is in my opinion quite a distasteful form of efficiency.

You have just reframed the concept, role and artistry of language in a way where you have disguised how threatening a loss of diversity in it will be towards pushing things into collapse, degradation and violence of some kind.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You will never come up with the concept or learn how to explain it to people without the diversity, intelligence, creativity and new ideas that a diversity of languages and really everything brings to the table

You do not demonstrate or indicate any mechanism whatsoever that would support this claim. Also it's VERY unclear what you mean by "everything" in this context?
You also haven't shown how being able to communicate is a disadvantage, or how NOT being able to communicate helps learn new concepts?

Is there a single philosophical idea or abstract concept you can point to that originated only because the philosopher spoke a specific language?
Or do you have anything to demonstrate how "life" is better in one language as opposed to another.
Or even just how it makes us culturally "richer" that there are hundreds of languages we don't understand?

[-] Tetragrade@leminal.space 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

You also haven’t shown how being able to communicate is a disadvantage

Well, after wasting my time reading their verbal diarrhea, I think they may have a point.

On a more serious note, while communication efficiency increases productivity, it also alters the balance of power. In our case, it allows larger structures (i.e. the UN, US, international businesses) to more effectively exert their will over local structures. If you are for instance, a Chilean anarchist, a Russian businessman, or a Papuan village elder, it's not in your interest at all.

[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Chilean anarchist, a Russian businessman, or a Papuan village elder, it's not in your interest at all.

Further, if you are afraid of the misinformation potential of AI to manipulate people recognize that a person can easily learn two languages and learn to understand how to leap in ways between them that a LLM could never do.

If you want an LLM to learn how to speak fluently in two languages you have to create two ecological catastrophies in order to make it happen, I just have to read a book.

Just by virtue of conversing in different languages and more importantly finding a joy in their confounding diversity and endless lessons they subvert our worldviews with, we make it harder and harder for LLMs to be used by authoritarian entities to steer the conversation in ways that are evil, disrespect the opinions of others or degrade the nuance of conversations that are too important for them to let us have.

People mistake AI being shown to be able to copy human language in a given context so well that humans can't distinguish between robots and humans anymore in that context as proof that AI is more intelligent than us and we are hopeless against it, but in reality it is simply an exhaustive proof the vital diversity (in that particular context) necessary to create new ideas died long ago.

[-] Tetragrade@leminal.space 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Ima be real I'm not 100% sure what you're on about. I'd agree that LLMs can't really function to dissolve identitarian barriers, though they are clearly much more effective than prior methods. Things change and they rarely roll back, unfortunately.

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[-] Irelephant@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

Gaeilge (Irish) is barely spoken because of Britian banning it, if people give up on speaking it it means a massive loss of an important piece of Irish culture.

There’s a saying: tír gan teanga, tír gan anam, meaning a country without a language is a country without a soul. A native language to a country can be an integral part of its culture.

It makes sense to speak english or since its effectively the linga franca, but people can know more than one language.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Yes language can be part of national and cultural identity, and i agree oppressing it is absolutely 100% wrong, it's actually also considered genocide to do so, exactly because it erases a culture against the will of the people who ascribe to it. And I specifically stated that of course genocide isn't acceptable.

But in a situation where different cultures integrate, like in USA, people from different backgrounds get married and have children.
So if a Polish and a Spanish person for instance fall in love, it's a huge advantage that they have a common language, and when they raise their children it would be obvious to use that. They probably keep many elements from their old culture, but at the same time adopt new things from other cultures.
This way over generations this new American culture which consist of elements from many cultures arises, and elements of the old cultures disappear.
As I see it, this has created one of the worlds richest cultures in USA in record time. And for by far the most Americans I bet this is a net gain, compared to the singular culture they were originally limited to.

In my country we have also seen an influx of immigrants, mostly since the 60's. And it's very obvious to me that this has enriched our culture tremendously. Especially on food.
So modern day danish culture has changed a lot since the 70's, and that change is enrichment IMO, and hopefully to the immigrants too. But Muslim men can't have multiple wives here, because that's illegal. Is that cultural oppression?

[-] AntiBullyRanger@ani.social 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Nothing. Languages live and die by their usage. If nobody uses it, it can be tombstoned, like ܐܪܡܐܝܬ, Latinum, Olde Englisċ, etc..

There's not a single revitalizing project. Instead, I see conlangs being supported instead (Esperanto, öᵕꘖ, lojban, etc.), which RFI omits in their plea.

‎עִבְרִית‎ is being enforced through colonialism. While wôpanâak barely get funding. The only exception is līvõ kēļ.

[-] Litebit@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

How many vanished last century?

If need to, just preserve them into training material, movies, and other content, anyone wanting to learn them for whatever reason can do so in the future. Linguist are probably already doing this. Preserving them in some kind of library could also be useful resource when making movies/games from those olden period and using the actual spoken language from that time in the film/game.

I think most people learn/acquire languages for economic reasons to feed their families. Shouldn't be forcing people to learn language they don't need.

Actually, looking at history, no language will survive. Modern English is only 400 years old. In a few hundred years, all languages will be very different from what they are now. Different enough to be considered a different language. It is normal.

"Old English, a Germanic language, was spoken in England for centuries. The Norman Conquest in 1066 brought French into England, and the two languages gradually merged, resulting in Middle English. " war caused the "death" of old english.

Even language that will go extinct may be related to other languages so technically part of the language is still around. Korea share similarities to chinese, jap. Korean even share many words with Tamil language. So, just like old english went extinct or lost because it merged with others and became something else. Or a king could decide to create a new language, killing off existing language.

[-] nyamlae@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

Actually, looking at history, no language will survive. Modern English is only 400 years old. >In a few hundred years, all languages will be very different from what they are now. Different enough to be considered a different language. It is normal.

This is a completely different process than what's outlined in the article. The article is about outright language death, like if Old English had died so that it never became Modern English.

Language change is normal. Language death is, in our world, largely a result of colonialism, racism, and anti-Indigenous policies.

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this post was submitted on 25 May 2025
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