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Is there an absolute amount of shelf life to them

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[-] rikudou@lemmings.world 34 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Very often a virtual particle–antiparticle pair appears and because they're very happy they started existing, they immediately hug each other not knowing that will cause them to annihilate each other and disappear.

Every once in a while, the pair appears in a very interesting position: one is outside the event horizon of a black hole (let's call this one Pinocchio) and the other inside it (let's call it 3735928559). Because nothing can escape a black hole, they can't really hug, so Pinocchio says "I'm a real ~~boy~~ particle" and stops being virtual and becomes real, while 3735928559 continues its descent into ~~madness~~ singularity.

Unfortunately, the process means there now exists something (Pinocchio) where there wasn't anything before and that takes energy. And that energy comes from the particle that stayed behind which is now part of the black hole, so it effectively takes energy out of the black hole. You may have heard that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed, that's essentially what happens here.

The Pinocchios go away from the black hole, so they can end up basically anywhere in the universe.

As for the timescales, they entirely depend on the black hole's size. Really tiny black holes evaporate in a matter of seconds, the supermassive ones in a matter of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions... years.

In fact, black holes will be the last macroscopic structures to exist in the universe because the evaporation is extremely slow - every planet and every star and every gas cloud and every atom will cease to exist long before the last black hole evaporates.

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 weeks ago

How does adding a particle to the black hole remove energy from it?

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

The entire reason the particles can come in to existance is because the black hole curves spacetime enough to 'eat' one of the pair. It only exists because of the black hole. The particle leaving the black hole takes energy away because that area of spacetime now has less energy in it, meaning the black hole shrinks. The black hole isn't magically adding energy to the space around it in order to create these pairs.

If you throw a ball away from you, yes you feel the force, but now you've sent a bunch of energy away from yourself in the ball. In effect, the black hole is 'throwing' particles away from itself by the simple act of eating part of the spawned particles.

I've explained it poorly, but PBS Spacetime has several great episodes on the specific phenominon.

[-] electric@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

I don't know if this is true but it was very fun to read.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Reserving judgment permanently less a day on that exhibit, Counsellor

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

How can stuff have negative mass in the true sense of that?

[-] Sheepy@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 weeks ago

In this context, "negative mass" is a mathematical convenience rather than an actual particle having negative mass.

Think of it more like "energy required to pull apart a matter-antimatter pair". In the vacuum of space, the energy that created the pair gets returned when they annihilate. But when near a blackhole, it had to "burn" some of its energy to interrupt that process. Energy is mass, so the blackhole gets less massive.

Mind you this is a very basic explanation of it. It's just another quantum whackyness of our universe.

[-] einlander@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago
[-] AcesFullOfKings@feddit.uk 23 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I am not a physicist, but I looked up the answer to this question a few years ago and didn't fully understand but I think it's something like this.

Mass and energy are equivalent. So if it can lose energy then it can lose mass.

Although famously nothing can escape the black hole, energy can be lost via Hawking radiation. I don't really understand this, but apparently quantum particle pairs are always being spontaneously created in empty space. The pair of particles are opposite: one has negative mass/energy and one positive mass/energy. Usually they are randomly created and then instantly destroy each other, resulting in zero net effect. However if this happens precisely on the event horizon of the black hole, then it's possible for the negative mass particle to be ever so slightly inside and the positive mass particle to be ever so slightly outside. So the negative mass particle ultimately falls in, and the positive mass particle escapes. The result is that the mass of the black hole is reduced (by adding particles with negative mass/energy) and some positive energy flies away from the black hole.

This only kinda makes sense to me, because I'd have thought that there'd be a 50/50 chance of the positive or negative energy particle being pulled in, resulting in a net zero effect in the long term. But I think there's some bias to the negative one falling in more often. idk really.

This is VERY MUCH a layman explanation based on something I half-understood a few years ago, so I'm sure people will come along and correct me where needed via Cunningham's Law. But I think that's the jist of it. I suppose if you wanted a fully rigorous scientific explanation you'd have looked it up instead of asking here.

[-] Wrufieotnak@feddit.org 14 points 2 weeks ago

Nearly correct, but it's not about negative mass, because that doesn't exist as far as I know. Rather it is about matter and antimatter which have other opposite properties, the mass is the same for both. That's why it doesn't matter which particle goes back into the hole, because the creation of the particle pair used up some of the energy (and therefore mass) of the black hole and if both fall back, nothing changes. But if one escapes, a minuscule amount of the mass of the black hole left its event horizon and thereby decreased its mass.

[-] BurgerBaron@piefed.social 4 points 2 weeks ago

Ace covered it well enough, and I think you can find their "shelf life" using the math Hawking came up with to predict when a certain mass black hole will be fully evaporated. How accurately I'm not sure.

The actual form of the radiation emmited back into space from evaporation depends on the mass IIRC. So stellar to supermassive would show up as photons and neutrinos. As they shrink they get hotter for some reason (I'm just a layperson too) and then could emit stuff like electrons, muons, etc. Evaporation also accelerates as the black hole mass shrinks.

Not sure what happens when the black hole reaches the mass of something that's not a black hole like a Neutron Star. Does the black hole singularity explode? Don't know. That's one idea vs just shrinking until it winks out of existence.

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

The evaporation increases because spacetime is bent more rapidly by smaller black holes than big ones. It's the same reason you can enter a supermassive black hole without being spaghettified, because the curvature never reaches a point where there's a huge difference between your feet and head, sort of thing.

That curvature drives the evaporation rate, because the particles flying off are virtual particles whos partner fell in to the black hole with it flying outward. That happens far less often when the curvature is so low that any given point around the black hole is almost flat spacetime.

this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2025
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