Few Good Options as Israel Weighs a Ground Assault on the Gaza Strip (www.bloomberg.com)

submitted 1 year ago by Rapidcreek@reddthat.com to c/news@beehaw.org

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[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 37 points 1 year ago

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[-] emma@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.

If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They've refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago

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[-] emma@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We've all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That's why the border and checkpoints are there.

Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn't an "empty political gesture". Far from it. So far from it.

It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.

And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won't listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.

Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?

[+] raccoona_nongrata@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

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[-] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So you don't grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants' missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn't an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn't fit your IsraelBad narrative but it's vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don't have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can't forget.

Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren't aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas' leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.

But now you've seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.

How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.

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[-] ram@bookwormstory.social 4 points 1 year ago

Hamas isn't Palestine.

[-] emma@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don't forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you've seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.

[-] ram@bookwormstory.social 1 points 1 year ago

And we've seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you're just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn't commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?

[-] emma@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it's 4,882.

Which of course is still 4,882 too many.

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not "justifying ethnic cleansing" in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants' most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It's observable over and over and over again, except it doesn't become news until Israel responds.

Hamas' provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It's the same pattern. You've now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

If you don't have an answer, don't fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That's not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

[-] ram@bookwormstory.social 1 points 1 year ago

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.

My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.^[https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/]

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.^[https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15] The Gaza strip is the world's largest open-air prison, due to Israel's blockade. It's one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There's a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.^[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-palestinian-enclave-under-israeli-assault]

It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war

History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.

Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I'm not going to downplay that at all.

But we're currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that's held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu's far-right government will come to is poised to be "The Final Solution". There will be diplomacy. I'm not sure there's even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.

So tell me, if you're not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you're not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you're advocating for?

I'm not arguing that I have all the answers, I'm arguing that the answer the world's agreed upon is the wrong one.

That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

If you're defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn't you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?

[-] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this.<

That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You're far from the only one who does it, it's VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you'll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it's been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.

The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade<

How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven't heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.

So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?<

Recognition of Hamas' agency in this. Recognition of militants' agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists' agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.

Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?<

And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you're accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.

Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they're leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.

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[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"Withdrawal" can be really misleading, here, because it was very much not disengagement aka leaving Gaza alone: The moved the prison guards from inside the strip to the wall surrounding it and then closed the gate and enacted a blockade, for 16 years straight now. About 50% of Gazans are 18 or under, growing up under those conditions, 80% are reliant on humanitarian aid.

You can certainly make arguments that an arms blockade is warranted. But concrete? Starving the city of water? Yeah that's very much not leaving people alone.

[-] emma@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, it's pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)

Israel can't force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can't force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.

Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn't do that, there wouldn't be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn't limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they "achieved" Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they're not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?

Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren't the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don't have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don't know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.

That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.

Their role in all of this MUST be understood.

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[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 11 points 1 year ago

You mean like the rampage and slaughter last weekend?

[-] dark_stang@beehaw.org 23 points 1 year ago

It's not inevitable, you could stop apartheid.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 7 points 1 year ago

You think that Israel should ignore that a thousand of their citizens were slaughtered?

[-] dark_stang@beehaw.org 24 points 1 year ago

I wonder what could have provoked an attack like. Perhaps decades of oppressive occupation. Constantly escalating violence isn't going to fix this. But Israel is the side that can choose to end it by ending apartheid. All the imprisoned can do to improve their situation is try to fight out of it.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 8 points 1 year ago

This is one of those justification posts. To which I always respond that there is no justification for the various atrocities committed by Hamas. To which you respond with something about Israeli oppression. To which I respond that it still doesn't justify the vile and nasty nature of Hamas action and if your moral compass says it does I feel sorry for you. Then I slowly get bored with your inane ideology. Good. So that's it.

[-] dingus@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago

So you agree that both sides are doing terrible things and there are no good guys in this situation? Just innocents caught in the middle.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 14 points 1 year ago

They've killed almost 1000 in Gaza now. Are you suggesting hamas shouldn't ignore that? When does it end.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago

It is war. It ends when one side gives up or is destroyed.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Either side giving up will be genocide. Or destroyed, which is again genocide.

So essentially your idea of resolution is genocide.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago

Not my idea. Name a war that ended differently.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

WW2. We didn't slaughter everyone in Germany.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago

WWII ended with one side surrendering. There was quite a lot of slaughter before that happened.

[-] Lmaydev@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Right but if one side surrenders here they'll lose their land and be destroyed. They aren't similar.

If hamas get Israel the Jewish population is fucked. Look at what's happening now when they crossed the border. That wasn't war it was slaughter of civilians.

If Israel get Gaza the Palestinian population is fucked. Look at the westbank. That is isn't war either.

It's not the same as any war. It's 100 years of religious / racial conflict.

The only end is an agreement or genocide. And 100 years have shown an agreement is unlikely.

They came over the border a killed 1000 civilians. In retaliation Israel has killed 1000 civilians in air strikes. It's not war. It's slaughter.

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[-] ram@bookwormstory.social 11 points 1 year ago

Both the Israeli government and Hamas are wrong and bad. The Israeli people and Palestinians are both indigenous to the land they share, and both have the right to live there. The median age of Palestine is under 20, the people many people in this thread are justifying the genocide of are majority children, because their parents have been killed by the Israel government in an apartheid state. The solution Netanyahu will take will be genocide of Palestinian people, when Hamas is to blame.

[-] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago

not committing war crimes, apartheid, and genocide is a good option

[-] khalic@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

So, they should accept the massacre and feel bad about themselves?

[-] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 year ago

they shouldn't respond to an attack by killing innocent civilians also they've been brutally dehumanitizing and terrorising Palestinians in Gaza for years

[-] khalic@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

The deliberate targeting of civilians is horrible. But it’s well documented that hamas uses people as meat shields, by using civilian buildings as ammo depots and rocket launching platforms. That’s, unfortunately, a fair target then…

[-] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

gaza is literally a small territory surrounded by water and israel where do you think people would be that aren't targets for missles that level entire city blocks?

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[-] khalic@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

Israel definitely could have avoided this, and not fuck up the whole situation so much, but it’s not a simple matter… and self defense is a simple matter… if someone shoots at you, you kill them. That’s what happens when you take a gun. If you massacre a bunch of civilians, then people are going to shoot at you and your accomplices with passion

[-] cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 year ago

but then doesn't that mean palestinians have a right to self defence?

[-] khalic@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Military targets yes, if there is a missile launcher or ammo in an israeli building, yes it is a valid target. You have to right to kill anyone who’s actively trying kill you.

[-] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago

Gotta say that bringing up 300,000+ troops in 72 hours is very impressive.

[-] El_Dorado@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago

I guess they just have huge numbers available also due to the fact that almost all women and men are in the military service and hence reservists

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this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023

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