But the sub is the one in control? Safe words and all that.
Dom/sub is not hierarchy, it's a consensual relationship between people.
Hierarchy is an institutional set of involuntary command/control relationships
This was probably just a bit or whatever, but I feel like it would be pretty easy for someone who actually thought all hierarchy was involuntary to argue that acting according to biological imperatives (such as the need/desire to engage in kink dynamics like femdom) are not voluntary. We can't choose what sexual orientation we have, either.
Those fundamental desires are imposed upon us by our brain chemistry, whether we want them to be or not. You can consent to who you engage with, but you can't consent to experiencing those needs in the first place.
If you squint hard enough, that's similar logic as when people claim that capitalism is fine because you can "choose" to get a different job.
Is there a nuance to usage of the word hierarchy that I'm not understanding in this context?
Like if I invite a bunch of friends over to help me move into a new apartment, is there a hierarchy because I'm telling everyone where to put the boxes? If my pal Sarah drives a truck for work, so I entrust her to load the van with two other people, is that a hierarchy?
I'm not asking this to be a smartass, I'd just like to understand if there is a meaningful difference between hierarchy and deferring to someone's skill in a particular domain.
no, that wouldn't really be a hierarchy because there's no authority involved. if you're deferring to someone's skill, that's not authority, because you have the freedom to do that and it is voluntary. you or the other people can leave that association at any time.
a hierarchy is, as @CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social so sufficiently just put it, "an institutional set of involuntary command/control relationships".
This guy fetishes.
Fetishes and kinks are different things.
Re-education camps for nazis? 🤷♂️
If I want to learn to bake bread I voluntarily accept the bakery te4acher as my superior in this matter for the duration of the lessons. If the first person had said voluntary hierarchies are the only valid ones they might have had a point!
here's my reply to another comment like yours:
that wouldn't really be a hierarchy because there's no authority involved. if you're deferring to someone's skill, that's not authority, because you have the freedom to do that and it is voluntary. you or the other people can leave that association at any time.
a hierarchy is, as CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social so sufficiently just put it, "an institutional set of involuntary command/control relationships".
This really seems like it only makes sense in the context of contrived definitions of "authority" and "hierarchy". Expert Authority (authority deriving from an individual's expertise in a particular field) is a well-established and widely recognized concept.
"Hierarchy" does not inherently imply that the relationships are involuntary. If you want to call such structures "involuntary hierarchy", knock yourself out, I'll agree with everything you say against them. But voluntary hierarchies are still hierarchies by the actual definition of the word, and when the structure is based on expertise (judges, teachers, trades experts, administrative coordinators, etc) they are extremely effective.
Redefining words to exclusively refer to the most negative aspects of the common definition is bad rhetoric, intellectually disingenuous, and ineffective at spreading a message. Like I said, if you would like to be specific, and append an appropriate adjective to existing words to refer to a particular subset of a concept (involuntary hierarchy, arbitrary authority) you'll have much more luck convincing those who know what the base words mean.
No True Scotsman would ever have a hierarchy!
I know it's semantics (er...is it diction?) and at the end of the day pretty pedantic, but this is the first time I've seen the suggestion that hierarchy necessitates authority, and that authority necessitates compulsion (or an institution, or a command/control relationship). I mean yeah, they definitely have those connotations, for sure. And maybe in the context of anarchist theory, this is their functional definition.
But in a general sense, we still have hierarchies that are completely outside of the realm of social organization, like top down hierarchical categorization of...things...right? Like, stuff? And similarly, we have authorities that aren't necessarily relevant to compulsion, like an authority on a particular niche subject. I guess we're compelled to believe them, but, I dunno...
I'm kinda thinking out loud here. But I guess if I met, say, a master woodworker, and she was guiding me through building a bookshelf, I'd still say she is the authority over my actions, even if I decided to do something contrary to her commands. For sure, she has the right to tell me how to build the bookshelf -- she is the expert, I recognize the authority over me in this matter -- and she retains the authority even if I defy her. Idk maybe I'm talking about a different definition of authority.
I unironically, have no idea if this post is a satire or not.
Gestures to Trump Supporters
Gestures to Russia and China
Gestures to AfD victories
Gestures wildly towards workplaces
Workplaces, at least under capitalism, aren't a voluntary hierarchy. You have to sell your labour to survive.
The acceptance of hierarchy, as I have often seen, is very often even wanted.
That's different, workplaces buy your time from you.
That doesn't mean we go there involuntarily. Femdom also gives you something back.
I wouldn't exactly call the workplace voluntary though? When the alternative is to be without "legitimate" access to primary needs like food, shelter, healthcare, etc.
Id say it's more coercive than anything.
But yeah voluntarily hierarchies still exist, it's just that normally they're meant to dissolve. Like a student-teacher hierarchy
The acceptance of the hierarchy is not always but often volontairy. Or that is what I have seen, a lot.
Is it possible for those needs to be met systematically without some kind of coercion?
I was about to say "what about therapy" and then I remembered how almost every therapist besides me does therapy (and how they react when they learn how I do things...). I know I can't eliminate all the spooks, but I do try my best
That's so vague tell me more.
It's all so second nature to me at this point that I had to spend a good bit of time thinking about all the ways I incorporate my anarchist values in my practice. I'm sure there are more, but these are the most significant ones I could think of
No insurance, so I'm not forced to pathologize my clients and I'm not beholden to a third-party constraining what we're allowed to work on, etc
Extremely low cost, with no means testing, and I even accept bartering
Full therapeutic self-disclosure to help dissolve the power dynamic
Conduct sessions in neutral or client-centered environments (I have no public office- I meet clients virtually, outdoors, or in their home)
Peer accountability with a fellow anarchist in the medical field
Consent and boundaries are iterative and explicit
Session structure, modalities, etc, are collaboratively negotiated
Edit: I realize this list probably sounds normal and benign to leftists, but libs react very strongly to these things
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