Criticizing when someone argues in an ethno-nationalist way is ok when it's pro Palestine, apparently. (slrpnk.net)

submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by Prunebutt@slrpnk.net to c/yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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I wrote in this post that I'm uncomfortaple to argue "genetical[ly] or genealogical[ly]" why people "belong" in some place or another. I think that's ethno-nationalist reasoning and a "weapon of the enemy" reasoning applies. Even if it's in favour of Palestinians.

But apparently, that's "settler-colonialist apologism" for dessalines. Ethno-nationalism is ok if it's targeting "the right" people, I guess. /s

I think the reasoning of the comment removal is bollocks. Just because I don't want to argue why someone "belongs" someplace because of their genes, I'm not all of a sudden in favour of settler-colonialism.

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[-] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 day ago

Need to pick one: 'genetics' OR 'geneology' on this topic.

They're extensively different and blurring the two allows the discussion to pivot between them, which maximizes the potential for misconstruing points or taking them deliberately out of context.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 20 points 3 days ago

I disagree with the removal but you are wrong. Anti settler colonialism in Palestine use this argument of genetics and genealogical because those where exactly the main justification of Zionists forcing a state on the local Palestinians population. Many Zionists claim that they had has the right to create an ethnostate because of 2000 years old Jewish kingdom and continuous presence in the land while at the same time saying Palestinians are just Arab colonizers that should be transferred to other Arab countries while Israel take all the historical Palestine

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago

So wouldn’t it make more sense to completely undermine this idea? Staking a similar claim makes it more debatable since both groups have at least superficially convincing historical narratives in play. And with anti-Palestinian racism being so commonplace in the west, people are biased towards Israeli narratives.

Whereas acknowledging that people always have a right to stay in their homeland just immediately undermines the exile and evictions involved in Israel’s colonialist project. It’s simple and easy to understand and directly rooted in basic human rights that everyone can empathize with.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

No, we are not using the same type of argument to prove us right but to prove them wrong. There is people who really believe Zionists stupidest claims so yes it is important to use the same logic just to prove that the argument is so stupid and contradictory.

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I just think by engaging in this argument you give it credence, and it’s such a confusing and technical one that most people aren’t going to understand or have the ability to debunk anything, so they’ll just go with their political affiliation.

I mean does the argument that European Jews have a claim to some distant land because some of their ancestors came from there hundreds to thousands of years ago really need to engaged with as a serious argument? I don’t think this really has much weight if you think about it.

Like, I have European ancestry. The implication here is I should be able to go back to those countries and kick someone out of their home just because of this fact? It’s a ridiculous and extremely violent idea. I think that’s going to be a lot easier to get people to see than quibbling about what percent of Jewish ancestors came from here or there.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I mean does the argument that European Jews have a claim to some distant land because some of their ancestors came from there hundreds to thousands of years ago really need to engaged with as a serious argument?

Considered the amount of time i see this argument on social media show that the argument is a serious argument from zionists so yeah i think it is important to adress it

Just look at the far right demonstration in the uk. They couldn't gather as much people few years ago despite the ideology they hold that no civilized people should accept them

Even a ridiculous theory like fat earth is gaining popularity, 2% of Americans believe in it that's 6 millions people

[+] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca -7 points 2 days ago

Seems it's the rationalization of aasholes whether they be Israeli or Palestinian.

People have a right to live where they're born. More than 80% of Israelis were born there. The attempts made to dehumanize people for living where they were born by trekking then as Zionist or colonizers is racist and fascist.

OP is correct to see the connection between a movement that thinks in terms of blood and soil as being inherently wrong.

Someone is not a "colonizer" for living where they're born just because some racist aasholes don't approve of people of that ethnicity living that patch of dirt because of something in a history book. It's a fascist thing to use history to create grievance to rationalize their violence which they use for oppression.

This kind of historical grievance bullshit doesn't gain anything for anyone. It definitely isn't making anything better for Palestinians.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Please read again to understand what i am saying. I don't think Palestinian has the right to the whole land because of genetics but because they was the local population that was ethnically cleansing by Zionists to create Israel.

Nobody is arguing that nowadays Israelis don't have the right to live in the land and that they should be kicked out for the crimes of their parents and grand parents unlike Zionists who claim Palestinians are just colonizers . But in 48 most of the settlers was foreigners from Europe that forced a state over the local population.

You guy always have understanding issue so i will repeat the only reason the argument of Palestinians genetics is to prove that the argument is ridiculous . If Zionists really believe that argument which i don't they wouldn't say Israel has the right to the whole land because of it, they wouldn't call for Palestinians to be kicked out under the pretext that they are Arab colonizers.

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 days ago

[removed by mod]

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

You're just trying to stoke hatred because you want this conflict to continue forever. Your petty internet arguments mean more to you than human life.

The one who believe in a one state solution is the one who spread hatred and you who are justifying an supremacist and settler colonialist ideology is not . You are really a big idiot . My arguments are valid otherwise you would addressed them directly but you keep deflecting

Why else would you be using terms like "Zionist", "colonizer"

I use the term Zionists because they are Zionists based on Herzl definition, i use the word colonizer because Israel is colonizing the west bank and occupying Gaza .

The fact that Palestinians are constantly losing in these wars doesn't sway you at all because Palestinians dying means more grievance and more promoting violence.

Palestinians are resisting a 58 goodman year of occupation yet you blame them rather than Israel the occupier who is committing genocide and you have the audacity to say that i don't care about the Palestinians

Right of return is dead now, Hamas killed it. At this point it's about even odds on whether there will ever be a Palestinian state. This is what your hatred of "Zionists" has accomplished.

It is Israel who ethnically cleansing Palestinians to begin which and made sure that they would not return so no it was Israel who killed the right to return .It is Israel who killed the two state solution by occupying the west bank and Gaza in 67, it is Israel who killed the two state solution by never ending the settlements expansion . There is no Palestinians state because the whole world ignored Israel settler colonialism fir 7 decades

You shamelessly compare Palestinians to Germans when it is Israel who is acting like Nazi Germany, it is Netanyahu who is acting like Hitler. The cycle of hatred was started by Israel and will end by Israel abandoning their supremacist ideology and their intention to exterminate the Palestinians

Do you value your hatred of Jews (fuck this "Zionist" bullshit, we all know what you mean) more than the lives of Palestinians?

You also have the audacity to call me an antisemite, should i remind you that Zionists killed many jews during their terrorists attacks before the creation of Israel. Should i remind you that some holocaust survivors is calling what happen in Gaza a genocide?

I am not an antisemite but you are a genocide and settler colonialism apologist

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca -3 points 2 days ago

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[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

What is you consider "Zionism" anyway? Wanting a Jewish state to continue to exist? I

Zionism the creation of a Jewish majority state on a land already inhabited. Zionists are those who are justifying the forcing of a state on the local population also known as the Palestinians in 48. I do not call for ethnic cleansing of anybody unlike Zionist

If you hate Zionism that means you're for ethnic cleansing of Jews from a region because they don't fit with your blood and soil inspired vision for the region.

This the terrible lie you pro settler colonialism and genocide supporters use. Your disgusting and irresponsible accusations of anybody against a supremacist and political ideology of being antisemite only hurt innocent jews and also advocating for the loss of jobs of many anti genocide and occupation people

It's your side that is acting like the mustaches guy. You shamelessly still comparing Palestinians and people believing in their freedom to be Hitler like while it is Israel who is acting like Nazi Germany

Now we have European countries declaring a Palestine when there's no actual leadership of Palestine.

The Palestinian authority respected the term of the Oslo accords and Israel is the one who ignored it by building illegal settlements, arming the settlers to attack west bankers then protect them . So they could lead temporarily Palestine till Israel end occupation then an election should be done

Yup, the goal is European colonialism 2.0. Maybe it's better than Iranian colonialism because that's what Hamas was.

The British alone are responsible of between 50 and 100 millions death in India alone. Iran colonialism is definitely not worse than European colonialism . Israel atrocities over 77 years of oppression is definitely worse than any atrocity Hamas did yet you are associating more responsibility to the oppressed over the oppressor

But you're totally cool with colonialism as long as the colonizers are against Israel

Again i support a one democratic state with equal rights for everybody. I do not support any colonialism. It's you who do

But unlike the Iranian colonizers of Palestine who are willing to send wave after wave of Arabs into the meat grinder to servertheir interests

Iranian colonialism didn't kill ten thousands of people. 83% of the killed in Gaza are civilians

You keep accusing me of spreading hatred when it's only you who does while acting like you care about the innocent civilians.

You should go to reddit, your propaganda won't works on lemmy

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca -2 points 1 day ago

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[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Yeah the Jews living there now were born there

Stop being disingenuous. I told you a million time I don't talk about current Israelis or the jews who was living in Palestine before the Zionist movement. I should remind you that there is 2 millions non jews in Israel so why do you keep talking about jews in general when we are talking about Israel as a state occupying another and Zionism as a political movement

Removing people from where they were born because they don't match up to the ethnicity you approve of living in at place is called ethnic cleansing. Doing so because of something in a history book is creating a blood and soil narrative. So you're for ethnic cleansing of Jews and you believe blood and soil rhetoric. Yeah, sure you're not antisemitic at all!

I told you a million time that no Israeli should be displaced yet you keep lying about me advocating for ethnic cleansing , i never did and never will

You really think Hamas believes in freedom? The group that refuses to hold elections and tortures any Palestinian that speaks out against them believes in freedom? You need to get out of your information silo a little bit methinks.

Again you keep accusing me of thing I never say. Hamas committed war crimes everybody know about it now let's back to the topic Israel is the occupier who committed Hamas like atrocities for 77 years

The comparison to Germany is apt. It was obvious Germany was going to lose the war long before VE day. Much like it's obvious now Hamas is going to lose. So why not just release the hostages? The only thing both the Nazis and Hamas accomplished by continuing to fight a losing war was getting a lot more people killed.

Germany was the oppressor, Israel is the oppressor. Nazis committed a genocide, Israel is committing a genocide. So the real comparison is between Israel and Nazi Germany. Unlike you who justify the genocide, i will never do it

Personally I want the hostages freed, and Hamas brought to justice.

I want the hostages freed , Israel doesn't . Israeli themselves say it not me , not anti occupation people . I was Hamas brought to the justice but I also want Israel to be brough in justice

I want to see Palestinians move past the hatred and find some good leadership so a Palestinian state that peacefully co-exists with Israel to is possible.

If you really wanted peace you would not justify genocide, you would ask Israel to end occupation so the cycle of hatred end

Just send more Palestinians into the meat grinder because you want to make "Israel bad" memes forever.

Israel is committing the murder which you are fine with it. Me , everything i write show that i do not support any murder

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Eeegh, This is not a clear-cut subject. While yes, a lot of us believe that one's genes shouldn't determine where one is allowed to live, we also can't dismiss the fact that historically Europeans felt very justified in forcefully going and settling lands where other people already lived because they felt they should just do so, and in the process exterminating the indigenous people and cultures. It's a more nuanced discussion that can be done in a few sentences, but I don't think it deserves a ban.

[-] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

https://lemmy.world/post/36586419

And MeanwhileOnGrad thanks to SmugJesus is using this as proof we're tankies, somehow.

But they don't brigade us! And Goat definitely isn't Pug's friend!

Yet another one for "anyone I disagree with is Tankie."

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Nuance is apparently just a city in France. Love that monkey doing whataboutism in the comments, as if I said "only Europeans can do colonialism".

Also SmugJesus being an incredibly uncharitable pos to claim my words support "ethnic cleansing"

[-] eugenevdebs@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 hours ago

The person who is a known liar, and replies to db0 users knowing they can't read his posts is being wrong? Unheard of.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 6 points 3 days ago

we also can't dismiss the fact that historically Europeans felt very justified in forcefully going and settling lands where other people already lived because they felt they should just do so, and in the process exterminating the indigenous people and cultures. It's a more nuanced discussion that can be done in a few sentences, but I don't think it deserves a ban.

I wholeheartedly agree. But again: bringing genetics into this is racist-pilled.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 3 days ago

Again, not clear cut like that, since the aggressive party is indeed very much a settler-colonial project.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 5 points 3 days ago

I agree. But you can critizise them without arguing with genetics.

[-] mrdown@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Depending on the motivation

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[-] unconsequential@slrpnk.net 9 points 3 days ago

Do you feel the same about First Nations rights? About Ukrainians? Or does it just make you uncomfortable in the context of Palestinians? Are Indians from India? Or South Africans from South Africa? I fear you may have some implicit bias in play here.

One of the big false claims is that Palestinians are solely from the Arabian peninsula when that’s just unequivocally false. They’re indigenous to the Levant and it’s an important distinction to fight Zionist propoganda. Palestinians have the right to argue against being ethnically cleansed by stating their multigenerational ties to their home. Just like any First Nations people or other nationality. You’re concerned about weaponization of ethnonationalist rhetoric in a context where the power dynamics simply do not support such a concept.

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this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2025

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