141

Apple Accused of Running a ‘Walled Garden’ by Canadian Legal Watchdog CIPPIC (www.iphoneincanada.ca)

submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by bartleby1@lemmy.ml to c/canada@lemmy.ca

26 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The Samuelson-Glushko Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic, or CIPPIC, is described as “Canada‘s first and only public interest technology law clinic” and is operated out of University of Ottawa’s Faculty of Law

Peter Nowak is also covering this at his substack.

top 26 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 25 points 1 week ago

I'm just pissed that Canadian prices are higher than US when we don't have tariffs on the countries making their products. I believe Apple is subsidizing its US customers with rest of world.

[-] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

They're profit maximizing everywhere. Their prices in the US are already what they think is the about as high as they can go while maintaining sufficient sales volume. If they could use tariffs to increase their prices without hurting sales, they'd do it. If they aren't doing that, chances are they have alreasy set US prices where price times volume is the greatest for the current market conditions. Worse, the economy is weakening so they may have to revise prices downwards. Probably by adjusting the mid-range model prices or introducing new, cheaper intermediate models.

[-] 4vr@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 week ago

Yes. Same phone for higher prices and less features for rest of the world.

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 week ago

Fine apple for the App Store monopoly.

[-] grey_maniac@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 week ago

Instead of fining giant corporations, punish them by requiring them to provide a fixed percentage (not dollar amount) of voting shares to the judging government per violation. Too many violations and the corporation ends up a wholly owned subsidiary of whatever nations punish them. Shareholders will fight to make sure the corporations are compliant. Or, we end up with nationalized corporations, reduced shareholder capitalism, and fewer oligarchs.

[-] Cenotaph@mander.xyz 6 points 1 week ago

I really like that idea

[-] budakai@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 week ago

I highly recommend everyone write their MP, regardless of party, to demand more antitrust work and start the breaking up of Canadian monopolies.

If you can gather signatures with names and addresses even better.

At the very least, write your address and name at the bottom. Your MP is obliged to respond to any comment postmarked within their constituency.

You can also formally request a meeting with your MP as well.

Don't be afraid of them. They work for you and they know it.

[-] puppinstuff@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 week ago

Time to get on board the alternative App Store train. First EU now everywhere.

[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 week ago

Apple Accused of Running a ‘Walled Garden’ by Canadian Legal Watchdog CIPPIC

I mean, welcome to 2008, CIPPIC... Thanks for catching up.

[-] Reannlegge@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

I think I got my most recent iPhone one model before peak smartphone, it doesn’t have usb c. I have thought about modding it to get usb c, only because I don’t plan on ever buying another Apple product.

[+] rekabis@lemmy.ca -11 points 1 week ago

Yeah, Apple has a lot of shitty restrictions in its walled garden. Firefox not being able to use its own rendering engine being a big one for me. And there are plenty more, such as a lack of responsiveness to legitimate devs when they report copycat rip-offs.

But as the Android ecosystem has shown, a breakdown of the walled garden has seen malware and scams explode in number. Many of the secondary app stores just don’t have the resources and tools to keep users safe.

Allowing alternative walled gardens is not the answer. Dramatically lowering the barriers to legitimate app developers is.

[-] CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

Many of the secondary app stores just don’t have the resources and tools to keep users safe.

What in the actual hell are you talking about? F-Droid and other open source stores are doing a better job at keeping out malware than Google Play Store itself is doing.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago

Perhaps. But F-Droid in particular has some pretty serious issues that cannot just be hand-waved away.

[-] CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah... So I read through that, and those aren't the "pretty serious issues" you think they are.

To be clear, they aren't inconsequential, but they're not "serious".

For example, complaining about the UX doesn't equate to a security problem. A lower target for the Android API also doesn't equate to security issues. It can be a contributing factor to security, but if your device can't even install a lower API then that's not an issue anyways.

There are some valid points made by the author, but a lot of it is sabre rattling by making those points seem like dangerous security mountains.

Edit: spelling

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 week ago

Stop fearmongering against sideloading and unlocked bootloaders. Do not sanewash apple’s locked down approach.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Then focus on forcing all Android devices to be totally unlocked and let consumers decide whether they want a freedom-based and chaotic ecosystem, or a locked-down and orderly ecosystem.

I mean, isn’t the free market all about letting consumers decide?

And if sideloading and unlocked bootloaders were so vital to consumers, wouldn’t those manufacturers making those devices be seeing overwhelming market demand?

The point being, bootloaders are locked for security reasons, and to maintain separation between warranty concerns. That’s why most Android devices with unlockable bootloaders require OEM codes, such that warranties on those devices can be invalidated due to no longer being within the provider’s control. It would be moronic for any manufacturer to warranty anything that is not within their control.

And look at that: less than 1% of Android phones currently being used have said directly-unlockable bootloaders. And the availability of phones with directly-unlockable bootloaders has been shrinking rapidly as of late. I wonder how many of those have actually been unlocked.

Honestly, I am not seeing any material consumer demand for said directly-unlocked phones, otherwise manufacturers would have those phones as permanent best-sellers and seek to make more of the same.

[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

warranties on those devices can be invalidated due to no longer being within the provider’s control.

I don't know if it's different in the rest of the world. And I don't know if it's changed in the 7 years since I last worked in the industry, but in Canada, you cannot invalidate a hardware warranty based on the software that's installed. If your phone's speaker dies, it's a hardware issue and the warranty is impelled to cover it.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

in Canada, you cannot invalidate a hardware warranty based on the software that's installed.

Software can most certainly drive hardware beyond its specs, resulting in physical damage.

Just try and tune a brand-new vehicle with third-party software, and then try to get warranty work done on a related part that broke. The manufacturer can and will successfully deny that warranty based on how that tune had the capability to drive the part beyond spec, thereby directly causing the failure… my BiL works at a dealership and has seen it happen dozens of times. Even skipping software updates can run the risk of voiding your warranty these days, when said updates are meant to correct software that doesn’t control the hardware correctly.

Phones are no different. If your custom OS has the ability to drive a speaker to volumes that are beyond its spec, that invalidates the warranty even if you never drove the volume that high. Manufacturers don’t have to prove that you actually did (and how can they, when it’s no longer their software that’s in control?), only that the custom software made it possible to do so. It’s up to you to then prove that you never did, and good luck with that.

[-] Sunshine@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

And if sideloading and unlocked bootloaders were so vital to consumers, wouldn't those manufacturers making those devices be seeing overwhelming market demand?

The big manufacturers can bulk buy all the factory space to make the best chips. People are chasing specs over freedom.

The point being, bootloaders are locked for security reasons, and to maintain separation between warranty concerns. That's why most Android devices with unlockable bootloaders require OEM codes, such that warranties on those devices can be invalidated due to no longer being within the provider's control. It would be moronic for any manufacturer to warranty anything that is not within their control.

People certainly don’t believe that corporate schilling when it comes to home computers and cars.

Also why are you letting ai do the thinking for you in that second link?

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

People certainly don’t believe that corporate schilling when it comes to home computers and cars.

Show me a single desktop/laptop computer manufacturer - aside from Apple - that deeply ties the software to the hardware.

Phones are different because the OS needs to be closely tweaked to work properly (and I would argue more specifically, functionally) on the phone. It’s why releases of custom ROMs are so model-specific. You cannot take a ROM for a Pixel XL and expect it to even boot on a Pixel 4 XL, much less a OnePlus. That kind of deep integration involves many specific settings because hardware is so wildly varied between models.

And car manufacturers can and do invalidate warranties based on software… a brand-new vehicle that has been “tuned” can and will have the warranty for a broken part invalidated if the manufacturer can demonstrate that the custom tuning software installed merely had the capability to affect the part in question. Since it’s not their software, they have no control over it to prevent it from driving the part beyond spec and breaking the part in question. Therefore, the onus is on the owner to prove that they never drove the vehicle such that the tune pushed the part beyond spec, and since you cannot prove a negative, good luck with that.

My BiL works at a dealership, and has seen many dozens of cases over the years where a warranty on a tune, chipped, delete, or software-modded vehicle was successfully denied. Hell, these days even software updates failing to be installed can cause a warranty to be denied if said updates correct a manufacturer’s mistake in the currently-installed software.

Also why are you letting ai do the thinking for you in that second link?

Because according to several different search engines, no-one has ever published any kind of answer to this kind of a question. The sales data is publicly available for each model, but nothing in aggregate when presented against the entire Android ecosystem.

Now granted, my view on AI is exceedingly dim. Even I take its answers at much more than arm’s length. But after poking at the sales figures for select models and comparing them against that of the entire ecosystem, I found its answer to be reasonably rational enough to be linked to.

[-] FreeBooteR69@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 week ago

Canada needs to demand all phones are completely unlocked, provider and bootloader. If they threaten to leave the Canadian market, good riddance i say.

[-] reddig33@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

You should be able to install whatever OS you want on your phone. It would solve this problem people have with the Apple Store. Don’t like Apple’s ecosystem or user experience? Install Windows or Linux or Android or whatever and play by their rules instead. It would introduce competition, and Apple wouldn’t have to change their rules or fee structure or whatever.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 week ago

You can already do all of that with some phones that are already on the market and which have decently current specs and tech.

…Where are the consumers clamouring for those phones? Why are those phones owned almost exclusively by enthusiasts and tinkerers? Why are production runs so small that these manufacturers struggle to remain profitable going concerns?

Maybe it’s because there is zero consumer demand for what you are asking for?

Vanishingly few people want to tinker with their phones. Most just want something that works without having to dick around with it. And having an unlocked boot loader means zero warranty, because no sane manufacturer is going to warranty something they have no quality control over

The simple fact is that there already are phones that give consumers total control over OS and platform. And yet, almost no-one is turning to these phones because that’s not what they want.

[-] lukecyca@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 week ago

Have you used the Apple App Store recently? It’s a cesspool of apps using dark patterns, gaming the rankings, stuffing keywords, tricking users who meant to install something else. Everything is “free” but needs “in-app purchases” to unlock the functionality that is implied. Apple is no longer protecting the user here.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

And the App Store is one of the things I clearly pointed out as needing improvement, albeit not with this exact example. Apple makes more than enough money off of developer fees to hire more people to police standards and provide a more effective method of dealing with developer complaints and issues without resorting to highly error-prone automation.

I mean, I never said Apple was perfect, only that they are clearly doing something “more right” than others, as evidenced by consumer choice… within North America, Apple phones out-number Android (not specific brands, all Android phones, COMBINED) by 16%. As in, Apple has a market share of 58% in North America.

It’s only elsewhere in the world, where much poorer populations are simply not able to afford Apple products, where Android dominates. And even there, those who have the money to do so tend to choose Apple phones.