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I'm seeing a lot of variance in the ratios. Some flails have longer handles, some have short. Some have chains as long or longer than the handle, some have almost non-existent chains. What are the advantages and disadvantages of various handle and chain lengths, and is there an "optimal" ratio?

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[-] Infrapink@thebrainbin.org 15 points 2 months ago

[https://acoup.blog/2019/06/07/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-v-just-flailing-about-flails/](The optimum is no chain at all).

A flail is a really bad weapon. The chain makes it difficult to control, puts you at great risk of hitting yourself, while not giving you any reach advantage. Real flails were medieval agricultural tools that were sometimes used as improvised weapons, but if you had access to an axe or spear, you would use that. If you have a big spiky ball of iron, it's much more effective to put it at the end of a rigid wooden staff and whack people with it that way; in other words, a mace is strictly better.

That said, real chain-based weapons do have their uses. The lkusarigama is made by attaching a sickle to a wooden handle with a long chain. It is used to entangle and disarm your opponent, at which point you can close in and slash them with the sickle end. Since it involves swinging a sickle on the end of a long chain, it would never be used in pitched battle lest you hit your comrades, and in any case spears are more useful when armies clash. However, kusarigamas were quite handy in one-on-one combat; since they were easy to conceal and could be disguised as agricultural tools, they were primarily used by ninjas and city guards

So to give an answer to your question, if you're going to use a chain-based weapon, the optimum length is long enough to completely wrap around somebody. And in that situation, you want a fairly light, small business end, not a big metal ball.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago

Real flails were medieval agricultural tools

How were they used agriculturally?

[-] einkorn@feddit.org 8 points 2 months ago
[-] Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

I still don't understand how you arrive at the big heavy ball attached to the handle with a sturdy metal chain. If you're a poor farmer and you don't have anything better than your two little spindly wooden sticks attached by a little hinge in the middle, where do you get a heavy spiky iron ball? And a complicated chain, and how does your threshing flail built only to support the weight of another wooden stick not snap when you use it? And if you had access to a spiky metal ball, couldn't you just attach it to the end of a longer thicker wooden stick and make a standby spear? Or moreover if our had to have some parts made despite your limited means, surely the capacity to have any of the constituent weaponised flail parts made would put you in a position to have something way better forged. It seems like almost anything would make more sense than that. Hell even a big iron club to bash people with at least wouldn't involve trying to deal with a swinging chain.

[-] dingus@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

This essentially answers my question of how in the world were flails like in the OP's question a thing? Answer: they probably never were

Even child me was confused at how you could use such a weapon without injuring yourself.

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 2 points 2 months ago

So to give an answer to your question, if you’re going to use a chain-based weapon, the optimum length is long enough to completely wrap around somebody. And in that situation, you want a fairly light, small business end, not a big metal ball.

So maybe something like a rope dart, meteor hammer, or bolas? I've seen some YouTube videos on meteor hammers, and it looks like one way to use them is by throwing the weighted end as a projectile and using the chain (or very often a rope) to retrieve/retract it.

I agree though, flails as shown above seem like an unwieldy garbage weapon. If I had to use one, I'd want a very short chain on it, so probably 2nd from the left on the bottom row.

[-] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 months ago

But I'm told there is great power in swinging a chain.

[-] Batmancer@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

My out of my butt possible explanation to the chain is to preserve the strength of grip because if you’ve ever hit something really hard with a solid object like a bat against another like a pole or rock, or even a bad contact with a baseball the vibrations from the impact can be painful and reduce your strength, sometimes causing you to drop the bat. Dudes might’ve had some thick gloves though to probably stop that though.

Also another butt idea, it may also preserve the condition of shaft overall because it wouldn’t be experiencing a lot of impact pressure either, only from blocking I guess and the general wear and tear of the attachment of the chain to shaft thing and the tug of swinging that bitch around.

I could also see it as an over the shield lever point where the shaft strikes the top of your opponent’s guard and the ball and chain fall down upon them.

Thanks for coming to my butt talk.

(I edited a spelling mistake. If anyone cares about edit stuff.)

[-] qyron@sopuli.xyz 4 points 2 months ago

I'm going to risk there is none.

Many hand to hand combat weapons were bespoke to the user.

Using an example I'm fairly familiar with:

In Portugal, we have a martial art called jogo do pau. It uses a simple wooden staff. Today's schools insist the staff has a standard lenght, width and shape.

An old school practitioner I had the pleasure to meet taught me the staff was always made to fit the wielder, not the opposite.

As a general guide line, it should have the lenght of the distance from the wielder's armpit to the ground but there would be people that prefered longer or shorter staffs. Some people would prefer thinner staffs, nearly cylindrical in shape, others would prefers heavier, thicker, almost eliptical in profile. The amount of customisation and variation capable of being put into the weapon itself was so diverse, it made each staff unique.

I'd risk this same logic would apply to more classic weapons, like the flails you ask about.

[-] markz@suppo.fi 3 points 2 months ago

This is the kind of question I subscribed for

[-] pseudo@jlai.lu 2 points 2 months ago

Are those called flails? I've always assumed if a word is the same in french and german, it must be the same in English. I thought they would be called morgenstern or maybe morning star.

[-] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Although commonly called "Morgenstern" in German, they're technically called "(Streit-)Flegel", so "flail" in both English and German.

"Morning star"/"Morgenstern" refers to a spiky ball on a club without any chain.

[-] Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org 2 points 2 months ago

Flails are weapons for demonstration, not real fighting. Use a mace or poleaxe instead.

[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

This.

The mace is your back up to the back up to the primary.

Primary weapon is going to be a pole axe or a pole arm or some other kind of pole weapon. The sword is your back up to this for when fighting closes quarters. And, in the case that a sword breaks or otherwise becomes unusable, then you reach back and grab that big stick of iron.

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 1 points 2 months ago

I believe a mace will perform better than a sword against an armored opponent, or at least against some types of armor, so it might just be "back up to the primary" in some cases.

/not a medieval weapon expert, so take as you will

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Not an expert, but logically the shorter chain makes it easier to handle and relatively more precise.
A longer chain however, allows for a greater swing, resulting in a much heavier impact.
That however can also be achieved using a heavier ball on the flail. But that makes it heavier to lift and carry.
Using multiple balls however seem counterproductive, as it will make the flail harder to use compared to the impact you can achieve.
I suppose the idea is to make it harder to defend against, but if the defender has a shield, I think multiple balls are utterly inefficient.

So as far as I can tell there is no single optimal balance. It depends on the persons strength and agility, and I suppose it also depends on what type of enemy it should be used against. For a heavily armored opponent, a longer chain will be better to smash hard against the heavy armor, and the armor will make the opponent relatively slower to avoid attacks.

In short I think the bottom left or the one above seems best all round, if you want something more precise, other weapons will probably be preferable.
The best would probably be the bottom right, but with one of the balls and chains from the top left.

An advantage with the chain is to avoid a hard hit straining your hand and wrist. And that part can also be achieved with a short chain. But the chain also has the function that it can pass a defense that would block a cane. If you block the chain, the chain will bend and allow the ball to continue a short distance further. With a shorter chain the flail is easier to defend against.

[-] don_kiedyck@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

I’m not thoroughly convinced by your mere claim of not being an expert.

[-] fubarx@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Having played with my friend's nunchucks in high school, I suggest long enough for the pointy bits NOT to reach your own forehead.

[-] jpreston2005@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Nah just have the chain length short enough that it can't swing back and whack your hand. That's pretty much it.

[-] Kevlar21@piefed.social 1 points 2 months ago

You want the chain to be just long enough for the spike ball to swing back and smash your hand

[-] lemmyng@piefed.ca 0 points 2 months ago

In my (non expert) opinion, the chain should be shorter than the distance of the handle to the end of the stick. Otherwise you risk pulping your knuckles with a stray flail head.

[-] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

In my even less expert opinion the chain should be longer.

[-] Redacted@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 months ago

Imo bottom right gives ypu the most control to bashing damage ratio

[-] RamRabbit@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I second that bottom right as the best pictured by OP, but the chain is still too long. Below is the correct length of chain. Maximum control and damage. Best against armored opponents that one needs to bludgeon.

this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2026
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