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submitted 1 week ago by Deceptichum@quokk.au to c/mop@quokk.au
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Money sucks, but it's also kinda also how a complex society like ours can exist. You put in work you get reward, in smaller societies it's alot easier to keep people in line without a currency since everyone tends to far more connected to the production of food and other resources and can directly benefit eachother through cooperation. Buddy working in the box factory over here has never met the person gathering their food, nor the 1k others possibly involved in that food getting to the table.

Idk can we do something in the middle? How about we just remove the need for money to acquire basics for humanity and allow currency's to be used for extras like drugs and alcohol.

[-] Formfiller@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

The most logical of people

[-] ech@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 week ago

Nothing is "free" just because it doesn't cost money. Money is, essentially, a representation of our time and effort, and making a living out in nature takes a lot of time and effort.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 28 points 1 week ago

No, that is literally a definition of free - not costing or having to be paid for.

The whole world doesn't resolve around money, you can do work for free without exchanging currency. That is not mutually exclusive.

[-] ech@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The whole world doesn’t resolve around money

Bud, you're the one here defining things solely around the involvement of money. I'm saying personal worth exists beyond that.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It's literally what the image is bloody talking about. The image is not anti-work, it's anti-money.

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

I didn’t read it as anti-money, I read it as pro-nature, from an indigenous man who owes his entire existence to his people’s relationship with and stewardship of nature.

I don’t know much about his culture other than that. I do know that there are cultures that operate without formal currency. One example is a gift economy. These systems are argued to foster closer relationships and a stronger community than a monetary economy.

I don’t know how they could scale up to millions of people though, since they seem to depend heavily on personal relationships and reputation to punish cheating and free-riding. If you’re further arguing that we shouldn’t have societies of millions of people and instead we should live in villages with large extended families and kinship networks, well now you have my attention!

[-] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

It's a Rorschach test showing us what we want.

I read it as Christian based anti-capitalist messaging that highlighted the Garden of Eden exists, it's Earth, and the people tearing down the world for greed are the snakes who will ruin this Garden forever.

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 3 points 6 days ago

Time and effort are costs.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 2 points 5 days ago

You use divergent definitions of "cost".

The quote specificately says money. Money is a form of measuring exchange value.

You're talking about "use value" which is not what OP is talking about. No one is talking about ptopia, where figs and wine bust spontaneously fall into our mouths. Stop strawmanning.

You can read up on the distinction here.

[-] GreenBeanMachine@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

If money represented time and effort, we wouldn't have billionaires and homeless people.

Somehow billionaires barely do anything and have all the money and all the time.

Money was supposed to be a representation of value, but it hasn't been that for centuries either.

[-] ulterno@programming.dev 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Money is, essentially, a representation of our time and effort

Well said. Although I tend to say: money was originally a representation of our time and effort.

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 week ago

Like diseases, death, natural disasters...

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 23 points 1 week ago

TIL: currency cures diseases, death, and natural disasters.

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 week ago

Currency is the alternative to nature? I would say society/technology gives us medicine and protection/warning against natural disasters, whether it's a capitalist society, socialist, or anything else.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 15 points 1 week ago

See the image, see how it's talking about money?

[-] TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 week ago

Yes, and about nature, and about the "free" things it supposedly gives you - except Nature doesn't 'give' us anything, it just exists. And if we want to get useful things from it, it's usually not free, we have to pay with our labour and time - and money is just the capitalist proxy for labour and time that enables people to have specialised jobs while still getting all the different types of things people need. Alternate systems could distribute the resources more equitably, but it would still require time and labour to extract it from Nature.

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 10 points 1 week ago

So 'pay' with labour, no one is arguing against that here. Do you think the housing this person is standing in formed naturally or that they have an issue with working? The issues they are talking about are money and ownership of resources.

Money (and capitalism) is a terrible way to abstract labour value, and as we can see it leads to hoarding by people who do no work.

Genuine question: how would you replace money in a complex society? Exchanging favors and services works only on a very small scale. 

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 2 points 6 days ago

Mutual cooperation as seen in anarchism.

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 1 points 6 days ago

This is a fantasy.

[-] Zexks@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago

We tried that before. It ends up in gangs, fiefdoms and kingships. You all act like we walked out of the forest with money and government already in place

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 2 points 5 days ago

All the rules are written in blood.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

Exchanging favors and services works only on a very small scale.

  1. Care to back up that thesis with some kind of proof?
  2. I think OP wants to step away from all that transactional "exchange" business.

Counter question. Care to explain how this would work on global scale? For instance, how would travelling for leisure work?

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

How what would work on a global scale?

A peasant in the 1500s wouldn't ever have been able to predict how capitalism would work out in the end. How am I supposed to explain in a detailed manner how production would work in a society that has superceeded capitalism?

If you want to read further, there are two recommendations:

  1. Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos
  2. Anarchist FAQ, Section I

About travel: What exactly do you mean? You would simply travel. It's even easier without borders.

[-] Gathorall@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Walk me trough a simple chain of trades that results in the building of a power plant. An automobile. Medical research.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

Walk me trough a simple chain of trades

Trading is the wrong paradigm already. Medical research is already publicly funded, too.

It's basically councils all the way down. A consumer council decides that a power plant is needed. It declares the powers and limits that a group of delegates has in order to facilitate the building of the plant. This includes the request for/acquisition of the necessary materials and needed workforce.

[-] Gathorall@lemmy.world 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

And if people don't want to build a power plant? Do your council beat them until they do?

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

If they don't want to build a power plant, why would they decide to build one? The council is made up of the people.

(You're kind of describing capitalism, btw)

[-] Gathorall@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

So what are you going to give the people who build the power plant? Who will give them resources? How much?

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

They'd be given the resources they'd need to build the power plant. If not enough volunteers are found, they'd probably get some sort of benefit as a motivation. Like some luxury items or relief from some other public service.

The resources are given from the place were they're from.

[-] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 days ago

Money at its most simplest it's just a representation of labour to facilitate trade. Hell, depending on how you define "money", there's a good chance the quote source uses it happily too.

Your gripe appears to be with capitalism, and maybe fiat currency.

[-] Prunebutt@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 days ago

Money at its most simplest it's just a representation of labour to facilitate trade.

Yeah... and the quote says "nature doesn't trade".

[-] e8CArkcAuLE@piefed.social 2 points 1 week ago

does anyone have the source of this?

[-] Deceptichum@quokk.au 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

https://video.alexanderstreet.com/watch/indians-in-brazil-children-of-the-land-mother-earth

All I can find is this clip and the intro for some show called "Indios no Brasil"

this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2026
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