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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by glimmer_twin@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

Disclaimer: I don’t want this to come across as downplaying the suffering of the victims, or the horrific nature of the crimes.

That being said, I think Epstein is becoming an obsession for people that is pointless, doesn’t advance the left wing movement, and is borderline unhealthy to be honest.

People on this site and beyond are doing borderline Q-Anon level baking, using random scraps from documents and making extremely tenuous connections. This shit is unhealthy, obsessing over it and staring into the abyss of depravity is just going to cause yourself psychic damage, and for what? It’s borne out of the same thing as all conspiracism: a feeling of powerlessness, a feeling that by uncovering the mystery, doing this “investigation”, finding some hidden truth, you are doing something tangible rather than just obsessing and suffering on the internet.

This isn’t to say I don’t think all things are on the table - “he was mossad”, “this or that person was involved”, “what if he’s still alive?”. But ask yourself, what changes? What changes if any of this is true? Are any of us shocked or surprised by 99% of the names dredged up? These are all people that we already consider ontologically evil for numerous other crimes and their class position. We already know that there are 10,000 ultra powerful, ultra wealthy people who control the world, who act with impunity, who are all interconnected and who all have bourgeois class solidarity that the workers can only dream of at this stage.

And what tactical or strategic advantage is offered to working class movements we are involved in by uncovering this hidden truth? We currently have no power to punish the guilty or prevent it from happening again. Epstein himself is likely dead, most of the people mentioned are dead, or ancient and on their way out. Should we be forming pressure groups and protesting our governments to thoroughly investigate and punish the guilty? If half of what is in the files is true, our governments are riddled with people who are complicit if not actively involved.

So what is the route by which the people’s justice can be served? The same as always - the working class needs to win political power. Our time is better served thinking about how we can advance the ball on concrete issues, work with our irl organisations to build working class power. I think driving ourselves mad on the internet and expanding so much mental energy tying red string between random names and events on our mental corkboards is deleterious to this mission.

Now, I’m open to the idea that using the Epstein angle in propaganda to disillusion workers of billionaires and capitalism could be useful, but that doesn’t require more than a cursory knowledge of the situation, knowledge we’ve all had for 6 years at this point.

As marxists we shouldn’t be hyperfixating on Epstein as the keystone of everything “evil” on earth. We have a class analysis and an understanding of the system superseding the role of the individual. Things such as “epstein was working for Mossad” - ok, that may well be true, but does it change our analysis of Israel? Does it affect how we view the settler-colonial relationship? Could it possibly make them any more morally bankrupt than the genocide we’ve been watching for 2.5 years? Than a century of ethnic cleansing?

I get this feeling that doesn’t sit well with me, that this is becoming some grotesque spectacle of “true crime”, motivated by an inability to look away, by the conspiratorial powerlessness I mentioned above, and by the same instincts that make endless podcast series and TV shows about gruesome murders eternally popular. And it is taking up so much oxygen on the left - ffs, the United States is about to try and topple its second government in a month and everyone is too busy combing through the epstein files to see if the-democrat or the-republican are in there.

Tl;dr: don’t drive yourself insane trying to know the unknowable, focus on the concrete, focus on things you can change, advance the ball!

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[-] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago

this is our Mueller report

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 5 points 2 months ago

Except the Mueller report was based on fake nonsense, while this is real

[-] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I mean it was only fake nonsense insofar as all liberal laws and statutes are fake nonsense invented by capitalists and their lawyers, to a rules based order liberal they were quite real infractions and they thought their institutions would get the bad man because he violated the arcane scriptures

That they somehow still think this after everything is the liberal mind virus

the Epstein cabal is real and even in the future it will remain true that these monsters should see justice, but the magnitude of "who gives a fuck" is absolutely disproportionate unless you're a rules based international order liberal cobblestone, even if it pales in significance to epstein the mueller shit is the same genre of wishful thinking

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I just want to point out the people downplaying the Epstein files are the ideological rules based international order liberals and their media puppets

The people pissed off are the average Joes of the world who are correctly outraged at the existence of a world spanning pedophile network with ties to intelligence, even tho they don't have the technical vocabulary and knowledge to situate this cabal into the wider capitalist network

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[-] starkillerfish@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago

And what tactical or strategic advantage is offered to working class movements we are involved in

Who is we exactly

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 7 points 2 months ago

People on this website should be involved in whatever decent group they can be irl. Otherwise they’re not a really communist beyond a lifestyle/fashion identifier

[-] FugaziArchivist@hexbear.net 6 points 2 months ago

I can appreciate this sentiment and think that basing one's politics entirely on conspiracy is ill-advised. You're right that the essence of conspiracy is lone-wolf investigation to uncover truths that can never be 100% proven. They are dives into the underworld by isolated loners who don't get anywhere in the end (from Warren Beatty in the Parallax View to Rust Cohle in True Detective). But, I think there is a place for conspiracy thinking sometimes and don't find it entirely pathological, particularly when you can appeal to non lefties about a power elite that does in fact collude. What better way to describe the ostensibly different political parties as the same arm of the capitalist ruling class? I would also ask: is this topic really taking up "all the oxygen on the left"? The drib-and-drab release of the files is still recent. The most absurdly damning stuff only came out this past Friday, so of course people are going to be distracted by it from all over the political map. Yes, it's 90% of my Twitter feed right now, but not forever. I wouldn't say a weekend or a couple weeks of Epstein-brain is taking up all the oxygen on the left. Do you remember the first wave of Epstein-brain in 2019, when he died in the MCC? That captured everyone's attention, but people were able to come back from the brink okay. I recall Cushbomb losing it pretty hard, going on Mike Recine's podcast and Grubstakers podcast to talk Epstein, and then losing it at a Getty image of a freakish mask hanging on a wall.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I recall Cushbomb losing it pretty hard, going on Mike Recine's podcast and Grubstakers podcast to talk Epstein, and then losing it at a Getty image of a freakish mask hanging on a wall.

Simpler times agony-shivering

Yeh, I’m sure you’re right that it will die down again. I just hate seeing people getting really blackpilled and upset over this, and yet continuing to gaze deeper into the abyss. I was kind of going for a “don’t torture yourself, there’s other, better, more positive things you could be doing for the movement” message with this post. But maybe that was a swing and a miss lol.

[-] Salem@hexbear.net 6 points 2 months ago

I have a cynical and pessimistic view of people's future in the US.

Revolution isn't going to manifest from a disillusionment from both major political parties, ICE crackdowns, or the facade of liberal democracy unraveling before our eyes. In Chris Hedges' book from 2012, Wages of Rebellion, he states a belief that the ruling ideology of neoliberalism is discredited but there is no ideology or course of action to take its place, calling this period an interregnum. A period between ideologies.

As long as cheap goods and easy credit exist for Americans to draw their sustenance from, even as they face increasing financial distress, the status quo will remain the same but with a degrading and tenuous political legitimacy and subsequent increase in stochastic terrorism and mass violence. Stable, but "enshittified".

There are mechanisms in the US Constitution and legal system to hold the power elites connected with Epstein accountable, but the rule of law has long been a farce. This was clearly illustrated when the Center for Constitutional Rights sued the Biden admin for complicity in the Gaza genocide when the courts acknowledged the possibility of genocide by Israel & US complicity but denied their own ability to check the power of the US executive in regards to foreign policy. The law favored the CCR but the courts favored power.

Strikes, work stoppages, blocking ports of air and sea, and protests are the only mechanisms available and the government seems content and willing to just let it come to an exchange of violence - and the state is better at violence in toleration and execution than the masses of ordinary people.

I agree with your tl'dr but I don't hold out hope for Americans as a revolutionary body or persons in mass distress to be disillusioned from the Democrats enough to engage in mass movement to compel the reformation of a 21st century New Deal.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago

Yeh, I struggle with maintaining the optimism at times too.

If nothing else it seems like the cheap credit and cheap consumer goods (or even affordable sundries) that you mention might be going away sooner or later.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago

Is there anywhere where you can get just the concrete stuff that is definitely in the files, without having to filter through speculation and implication?

[-] darkcalling@hexbear.net 2 points 2 months ago

Ignore anything labeled as coming from the tip line or tips. That shit is literally no better than posts on 4chan and most of it poured in during a highly contentious political period where Dems were extra eager to slander Republicans and Trump (not that he isn't guilty as hell but some of this stuff is almost certainly made up) and vice versa with Repubs desperate to slander Clinton and the Democratic party and so on.

Pay attention only to the Epstein emails and FBI files that are not tips but court proceedings, documents, victim documents (diaries, statements, etc).

[-] aanes_appreciator@hexbear.net 5 points 2 months ago
[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

(Refusing to read the 80+ comments before giving my hot take like a gigachad)

I think we should know enough for the sake of radicalizing others. How much we should know depends on how the people we interact with in our daily lives are invested in the liberal status quo. For me, it's enough to say that Epstein was a human trafficking pedo who leveraged his ability to procure victims in order to seep his way into the inner circles of rich powerful people who are also pedos. "It's a big pedo club, and you ain't in it!" However, I also know that the vast majority of people in my life are not that invested in the liberal status quo even if they lack revolutionary consciousness and aren't socially progressive. Most people who I rub shoulders with are in the "voting is a waste of time" camp, so convincing them that some dude is a rich pedo isn't particularly hard because they have no real reason to believe in the contrary.

I think conspiracy theories can be weaponized. Fascists do it all the time with the conspiracy theory-to-Jews control the world pipeline. "The CIA is behind so many conspiracies and they have the complete blessings of transnational corporations and the billionaires who own them" is as much of a leftist pipeline as watching Hasan vods. I don't think it's wrong of me to introduce the "Princess Diana was assassinated because she was about to out Jimmy Savile for being a necrophiliac pedo with connections to the Royals" conspiracy theory to someone who really likes Princess Diana.

[-] quarrk@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

convincing them that some dude is a rich pedo isn't particularly hard because they have no real reason to believe in the contrary. I think conspiracy theories can be weaponized.

Very similar thoughts from Marx (my bold added):

War on the German state of affairs! By all means! They are below the level of history, they are beneath any criticism, but they are still an object of criticism like the criminal who is below the level of humanity but still an object for the executioner. In the struggle against that state of affairs, criticism is no passion of the head, it is the head of passion. It is not a lancet, it is a weapon. Its object is its enemy, which it wants not to refute but to exterminate. For the spirit of that state of affairs is refuted. In itself, it is no object worthy of thought, it is an existence which is as despicable as it is despised. Criticism does not need to make things clear to itself as regards this object, for it has already settled accounts with it. It no longer assumes the quality of an end-in-itself, but only of a means. Its essential pathos is indignation, its essential work is denunciation.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 3 points 2 months ago

(Refusing to read the 80+ comments before giving my hot take like a gigachad)

soviet-chad

[-] thefunkycomitatus@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago

Some of us here are like dogs chasing cars with whatever is all over social media feeds. If tomorrow it's something else, they would be here scolding us for missing out on the opportunity to radicalize based on that. It's just chasing whatever is trending online. This coincides with how content creators operate, mining social media for content. The online left is enamored with leftist content creators who spend all day coming up with takes based on social media trends. Therefore the people start to confuse the mechanics of being a career takesmith with doing analysis and the work of assessing public opinion. Normal people become inadvertent Hasan (or Brace or whoever) cosplayers, essentially. This will be the most important issue of our lives and the opportunity to radicalize everyone until the next thing happens and everyone rushes to mine takes from that. Mining takes becomes the necessary work of winning hearts and minds. To criticize the takesmiths is to criticize the idea of winning people over at all. That's why they get mad and jump directly into accusing you hindering recruitment and radicalization.

The internet has done a number on us and I think the reaction to and discourse around Epstein is more insightful into modern capitalism than the conspiracy itself.

We have a real world example of a project that is ran by alleged Maoists and is centered on Epstein, it's TrueAnon. In their endeavor to properly analyze and contextualize Epstein withing capitalism they had to spend dozens of hours covering the last 100 years of US and European history. The idea that you can shortcut all that at a party in a weed circle of mixed company is laughable. The pod has "gained support" by gaining patrons. Deciding whether or not a growing consumer market for a podcast, or media consumption habits in general, reflect public opinion is an exercise left to he reader. Then you have to reckon with the mechanics of being a career takesmith again because maybe all that context only exist to mill content. Maybe the issue, as presented by the pod, seemingly connects to so much because the hosts needed more episodes in order to maintain a media career. If you want to be a materialist about it, you can't disconnect the career objectives of our faves from the format nor the industry nor the subject. This is why you have to do more than listen to podcasts before deciding some issue is THE issue of our time. This is why academic study exists and Brace/Liz would probably be the first to tell you they are not academics.

Finally, we have a real word example of a generation-defining conspiracy with JFK. Look at people treating that conspiracy as a joke and you have Epstein's destiny. It was a conspiracy with such broad support that the government had hearings about it. The "leftists" of the time didn't really get much accomplished by dwelling on it. They instead became highly involved in the cottage industry of conspiracy media afterwards (sound familiar?) and then at some point there were more right wing JFK-heads than left-wing. You can argue that they weren't as good as we are and we just need to provide better analysis. To that I say, where have you been since 2018? If you're only now deciding it's time to do real analysis then you already lost the monopoly on it.

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago

This will be the most important issue of our lives and the opportunity to radicalize everyone until the next thing happens and everyone rushes to mine takes from that.

leo-point

This is probably my favourite response in the entire thread. That point about everyone being drawn into the take mines due to the streamer/political content industry is really pertinent I think. Politics as consumption, the conspiracy baking being a more participatory expression of that.

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this post was submitted on 02 Feb 2026
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