Nope. Did not like. Insurrection and Nemesis are nigh unwatchable to me.
What's wrong with Insurrection?
Oh, I hate it. The labourious mind-numbing action, the "we aspire and they don't" hand-wave resolution to the half-assed philosophical premise, the dozenth mind rape of Troi and Picard's callous response, it's all trash.
Don't get me wrong, it had some OK scenes. You had to learn about them after the fact, though, because they were all cut from the film! Cutting Picard's discussion with Data from the start, and the crew's visit to his quarters at the end, is as good as cutting the Kobayashi Maru and funeral sequences from TWoK. They wouldn't have saved the thing, but they would have given Data's death at least a little emotional weight.
Left a bad taste in my mouth for twenty years. Thank goodness Picard came along to revisit these characters. It was a mess, but I'll take any season of Picard as a superior send-off to the TNG era than this movie.
Thank goodness Picard came along to revisit these characters. It was a mess, but I'll take any season of Picard as a superior send-off to the TNG era than this movie.
I actually just started watching Picard. I'm on episode 4 right now. So far, so good. I kind of stopped watching Star Trek after Discovery came out because I heard it sucked (Also because it was on streaming). I decided to finally give new Trek a chance and so far it's not half bad. It's better that I watch something and form my own opinion instead of listening to what some dumbasses online are saying.
We're always here if you want to hang out with the best group of dumbasses you'll ever find online.
Thank you! I'll be sticking around.
I wont say too much to spoil it, but my feelings on Picard's first season is that it started out with a huge amount of promise, then moved at a strangely slow pace for long enough that there wasn't any chance to properly resolve everything at the end. So a mess, but it had ambition and even those messier episodes had some lovely moments.
I struggle to think of things to say about "Nemesis", one way or the other.
I do like the Remans. We need more Remans in our lives.
The Remans are pretty badass.
I didn't like it.
The premise was interesting and kind of seemed to be TNG's Undiscovered Country, so that by itself wasn't bad.
Tom Hardy as a Picard clone was dumb. I don't know what the obsession is with having Picard become a father when his character was written to have his lineage end with him. It would have worked better if Hardy was a Romulan who was manipulating the Remans for his benefit.
Outside of Worf, the crew felt oddly in status. Giving Riker the Titan in this movie could have justified shaking up the crew. Bring in Crusher and La Forge as technical experts instead of crew because going to Romulus it's going to be a big deal and the two have credible experience with Romulan biology and technology.
Ditch the whole daddy/son thing and focus on the Enterprise and a small fleet trying to establish better diplomatic relations as invited guests and get attacked given how the sneaky Romulan politics is.
The final ship battle was cool.
For me Nemesis falls solidly into the "Not a 'good' movie, but something I can put on literally any time and have fun with it."
As you said, the themes, inasmuch as they exist, are clunky. The story is nonsensical. But the performances are good as always, the sets are good as always, and the presentation (sfx/makeup/etc) are solid as always.
It's thoroughly mediocre. I will watch it if I'm watching the TNG movies, but probably not standalone. There is definitely some cool stuff in it, and I also like Tom Hardy and Ron Perlman, but as you note I don't think it really pulls it all together. And then there are things I hate, like dune buggies, B4, and the fact they fucking killed Data.
It is especially bad as the last TNG movie. The TNG era crew should have got their Undiscovered Country epic last ride but Nemesis isn't nearly conclusive enough. At least we'll always have "All Good Things".
I honestly have a problem with how the Undiscovered Country treats the original characters. Great story, but it did the characters dirty.
Saving democracy through experience, cunning, and guile in their golden years all while continuing to grow as individuals isn't enough for ya?
Genuinely curious about your take, it's not something I've seen before.
while continuing to grow as individuals
Only one person really grew, and that is Captain Sulu.
It kind of doesn't make sense for Kirk to still captain the Enterprise, especially given the disdain that the admiralty seem to have with him. I also feel like he doesn't really have a mission any more like he did during the show. Given that Starfleet wasn't desperate for officers at the time, I would expect that Captain Kirk should be captaining a desk and only getting pulled in because Spock wants Kirk.
Spock shouldn't be a captain in this movie. He is doing high level admiralty/government work here. It was already accepted that Spock would retire from Starfleet and become an ambassador. Now is the perfect time to do it. It also gives a way for Spock to outrank Kirk in making decisions while not being an admiral, something which is kind of banked into the premise of the show.
Chekov was a first officer in Star Trek II, he should be a captain by now.
Scotty is slumming it as chief engineer of the Enterprise at this point in his life, especially as the Enterprise isn't the most up to date ship.
McCoy displays what appears to be incompetence in letting the Klingon Chancellor die. A doctor on the front lines of the Klingon Cold War should know enough about Klingons to be able to treat Klingons.
Uhura should know how to speak Klingon, also because she was on the front lines of the Klingon Cold War.
The only one who progressed in his career is Sulu as he is has a prestigious Captain's chair, but it makes sense given his age and experience.
I see what you mean. When I said "growing as individuals" I meant it moreso as "learning about ones self", i.e.: Kirk is forced to face and overcome his own racism, Spock faces his own biases when he is let down by the betrayal, etc. But yes if we're talking career advancement, then you're right. They're all basically facing retirement except Sulu and Chekov, really.
Personally speaking that doesn't affect the story at all for me, I think it's up there with TWOK as the best Trek film for it's Soviet Union "end of history" allegories.
Yeah, the movie definitely deserves it's accolades as one of the best Star Trek movies. It is just that you can tell, with this movie, there really wasn't anywhere good for the original cat to go from there.
I didn't hate it when I saw it in theaters. Thought it was better than IX and VII but not VIII. It was a hit heavy on wanting to be star wars. The buggy ride, fighter ships, fights on gangways above huge chasms on the ship, the humorous banter while pew pew. Didn't like the death of Data. Didn't we learn anything from Spock? I liked the world building for the Roms and the Rems. I liked Hardy in it.
I don't mind rewatching this movie. I feel it benefits from aging a bit like III doesn't (but V does for me). And I'd argue it's definitely better than PIC S2, if not the whole show.
The general vibe around this movie is bad because the box office take wasn't great and then we learned all these little tidbits from BTS: Wesley (the boy?!) being cut out of the wedding scene or the director thinking Geordie was an alien. I think Frakes in the chair would have done a better job with it.
Wesley (the boy?!)
True to your username, I heard the clip haha
the director thinking Geordie was an alien
Ugh. How did Stuart Baird end up directing this when you have a huge bullpen of Trek actor/directors that could've done so much better? Frakes is right there and did fine on First Contact / Insurrection. LeVar Burton himself, or even Roxann Dawson or Robert Duncan McNeill would have been available by then (although most of their directing credits come later).
I could understand if they went outside for someone that had a track record of decent movies, but Baird had little experience directing before Nemesis and apparently none afterwards.
I heard the clip haha
Best boss I ever had.
I don't necessarily understand why they chose that director but I kind of get why they wanted to try someone else. IX hadn't been a great success. They wanted to find new momentum like a sports ball team swapping coaches when the season is going south. Team still got relegated. Life is like that sometimes. It's easy for me to say Frakes would've been better because I have the benefit of hindsight.
The worst TNG movie by far. It had a couple good lines, and it could have been almost as good as Insurrection if it didn’t magically hand wave Data’s sacrifice away.
I remember leaving the theater annoyed. I saw them all in theaters from Undiscovered Country onward and it was the only one I wasn’t happy with.
Even worse than Into Darkness?!
Meh. I mean it's aight.
I wanted more of a Undiscovered Country with Romulans. But it had that while weird cloning arc instead.
At least we got more Romulans in P1, which I enjoyed.
To be honest, The Undiscovered Country was my least favorite. Though seeing Captain Sulu was awesome as fuck. The Voyage Home is probably my favorite. Generations was really good too. I actually liked The Final Frontier because of it's weirdness but I get why people don't like it.
i can dig it, rock on. :D
I didn’t personally, though I believe it was victim of the period at which it was made; with a sudden propension to weaker and oversimplified scenarios, overly aggressive cut scenes, ridiculously dumbed-down low dialogs, along with television networks who totally butchered the movies during reruns to allow more ads etc.
It’s not just that specific movie, it was how all "action" movies were filmed during those years, and the quality of Nemesis suffered because of it, just like Discovery’s second and third seasons suffered greatly by both the pandemic and the actors’ strike, causing shortened and greatly affected production time, resulting in 10-episodes seasons and broken scenarios.
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