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Get gud (lemmy.zip)
submitted 1 year ago by CluelessDude@lemmy.zip to c/gaming@lemmy.zip
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[-] CaptDust@sh.itjust.works 226 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

misogyny is a skill issue

Always has been, weak men can't stand women outpacing them, this is not limited to gaming but basically anything and everything.

[-] not_that_guy05@lemmy.world 125 points 1 year ago

Had co-workers say they would never marry someone making more than them. Shit is so weird.

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 57 points 1 year ago

jfc, being a home-husband is the dream, their fucking loss

[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Been there, done that, it sucked.

It was great at first! But after 6-months I was depressed. Guess I'm the sort that requires the structure a regular job provides. Kinda been the same for WFH. :(

[-] kadu@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

I had depression before WFH, still have it but at least now I can work with my cat on my lap

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I like WFH but I hated being a house-husband. WFH gives me something to do more than cleaning and cooking and childcare.

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[-] Zink@programming.dev 44 points 1 year ago

It shows how stupid and against your own best interests this kind of thinking can be.

I am the full time worker in my family, and happy to be the provider for them. However, I would be a stay at home dad / house-husband so damn fast if my wife got some random job mom making a lot more than me. I do have my priorities in order, after all.

[-] GigglyBobble@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago

I'd do housework and care for the kids in a heartbeat if my wife made enough.

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[-] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 1 year ago

It would be interesting to see if it's really because of how they are as individuals or more about the response to social status thing. Like if they did an experiment where high performers were deceived into thinking they were actually performing poorly, and vice-versa, would the attitudes towards women be reversed or not? The conclusions in OP seem to imply the researchers think they would be.

[-] Frozengyro@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

My hypothesis is men with low self esteem would be more misogynistic vs men with high self esteem.

[-] Fapp@lemmynsfw.com 4 points 1 year ago

My hypothesis is that if you're a piece of shit, that will extend to all walks of life(misogny, sucking at video games) whereas if you are not, the same rules apply(equality, excelling at video games)

By being a piece of human garbage you effectively hamstring yourself in every field.

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[-] stevehobbes@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

The issue with this is it’s too simplistic.

What it’s actually saying is “it’s easy to not be misogynistic as long as you’re significantly better than all the women”.

It does not imply that you won’t be misogynistic as soon as you are threatened.

Ie when status quo is maintained (patriarchy is intact for you) it’s easy to support women.

[-] bouh@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

The reverse is not true unfortunately. Skilled men are often mysoginistic assholes too.

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[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 184 points 1 year ago

Men of quality do not fear equality.

[-] spaxxor@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

This is in my top ten favorite quotes.

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[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 112 points 1 year ago

Ain't just gaming. I dropped a note on a home tech forum while being visibly female and very rapidly realised i'd forgotten how fucking neckbeardy rank amateurs are

I've been a network/systems engineer for 25 years, my fellow pros would never be so gauche.

Except dev.

[-] gkd@lemmy.ml 31 points 1 year ago

It’s weird with devs. Most of us are fine but there’s definitely a sizable number of “tech bros” that absolutely are misogynistic. And it’s probably worse than I realize not being the target of it.

[-] rediot@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago
[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 14 points 1 year ago

Rather ironically, I'm actually married to a dev

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 16 points 1 year ago
[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 14 points 1 year ago

instructions unclear, husband now caught in ceiling fan ranting about SEO

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[-] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Also, a disturbing number of misogynistic people in web design/web dev needing help from technical support. It was rather shocking and educational for me, as a cis male, to work as a support supervisor. I never anticipated the level of sexism and harassment that my female techs faced on a daily basis.

Everything from asking of they want to do porn to "can I talk to a man". I had several techs that had to change the names that they used for customer communications to male or neutral ones due to the severity on the unending sexism despite regular warnings to the customers that this behavior would not be tolerated.

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[-] jcdenton@lemy.lol 74 points 1 year ago

All I heard was men submissive to men

[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 22 points 1 year ago

Low elo men confirmed biddable and breedable

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[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 60 points 1 year ago

Nobody fears competition more than the mediocre who only get by on the weight of their privilege.

[-] zepheriths@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
[-] Synthuir@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago
[-] dil@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

There's further discussion in the second link where the original authors stand by their claim.

The two use different statistical methods to try to demonstrate the conclusion, and that's where the difference lies.

I'm not a big stats person, but I'm coming away feeling like the original claim is valid since a) it was shown in two different models the original author used and b) it makes intuitive sense to me.

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[-] JayDee@lemmy.ml 47 points 1 year ago

Hasn't evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

I think it's much easier to say that dudes have it hammered into their heads that girls are bad at games, so when they underperform and a girl is on their team, they feel emasculated. This isn't too far off from when dudes end up losing their 'bread winner' status in their relationship. They were told they had explicit traits to exhibit and they failed to do so, so it hits them in their self esteem. Classic fragile masculinity.

Patriarchal conditioning makes way more sense than "caveman brain HATE competing with woman!".

[-] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Hasn't evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

It's not without a good heap of criticism, that's for damn sure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_evolutionary_psychology

I tend to think the social angle is more credible Because the behavior of being a dick to female-sounding voices in games is not a universal behavior. Those who aren't misogynists don't act that way. How strange.

[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 19 points 1 year ago

Yeah, the problem is it slips too easily into essentialism. "Oh we evolved this way, nothing we can do about it I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Especially for questions like this, which could pretty easily be explained by cultural influences, no need to bring evolution into it.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

The entire field of evolutionary psychology debunked? Do you mean the idea that our brains are subject to evolutionary forces like every other part of our anatomy? No, not debunked.

This is conflating specific methodological problems with theoretical claims. Yes, many have criticized the game theoretical methodology typical of evolutionary psychology. There are a lot of highly speculative junk claims out there. It’s also true that some (not all or even most!) cognitive scientists think that we cannot take the perspective that psychology evolved at all. But it is certainly untrue that there is some consensus that evolutionary psychology has been “debunked”.

This criticism is also a bit ironic given the highly speculative nature of the claims you put forward. Your guess sounds plausible I suppose, but I see no reason to think it’s any more methodologically rigorous.

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[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hasn’t evolutionary psychology been heavily debunked at this point?

No. On the most basic level it shouldn't really be terribly contentious that evolution has an impact on psychology, on a more detailed level, well, they have their hits and misses just as every other field.

Patriarchal conditioning makes way more sense than

...case in point "everything is socially constructed" is just as bonkers a position as "everything is biologically predetermined". Why do people have to universalise their specialised area of investigation and “caveman brain HATE competing with woman!” is a rather cartoonish take on evolutionary psychology. If anything it'd be "young male annoyed he can't hunt for shit while female age-peer can because he wouldn't be able to provide for her while heavily pregnant". Note that not being annoyed in that case doesn't require better hunting skills, only sufficient ones, and "annoyed" can lead to "will work harder on his skills" or "is going to lash out" or "becomes depressive and walks into the desert" or "is going to look around, see all those capable hunters, and focus on hut building instead". There's a fuckton of behavioural flexibility left there.

Bad social conditioning then comes into that and shapes tendencies into caricatures of themselves, or good social conditioning comes in and, well, does good things. It's not an either/or thing, pretty much everything is both nature and nurture.

[-] Hundun@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

I was about to point this out - evopsych is an essentialist pseudoscience. Human interactions are governed by culture at least as much as they are by biology.

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[-] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What I would be really interested in, is how does it play out in reversed scenarios.

How do inexperienced women react to a singular man commenting in a competitive area that is female dominated, do you see the sane sorr of vitriol from lower performing women, vs welcoming behavior from better performing women?

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 4 points 1 year ago

Well if you want a reversal you need to be true to the parameters: get an experienced male operating - not commenting - and you need to do so NOT in an area dominated by women.

Because the gender split in gaming is almost 50/50. A 1% difference is negligible

[-] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's true for all video games but most competitive games with an esports scene will have many more male players than women. A lot of this is due to the extra toxicity female gamers experience in those scenes. Not only do they have to deal with the usual toxicity that everybody does when playing those kind of games, but also have to deal with the misogynistic and rape comments on top of that.

I wish it wasn't the case, and it does appear to be changing with time, thankfully. I notice quite a few more women in Counter Strike 2 than I have in past iterations of the game. I hope to see many more women in competitive esports in the future.

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[-] AceQuorthon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 1 year ago

Loser gamers are mad screaming chimpanzees confirmed

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[-] whome@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 1 year ago

Well in my observation the weaker players are quite often the more toxic ones. The "what a safe" spammers in rocket league are often the ones getting carried.

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[-] morphballganon@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Scrub == scrub

Got it

[-] Maoo@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago

Evo Psych is a garbage field for frauds but I would buy insecure dudes expressing more misogyny.

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[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 8 points 1 year ago
[-] sirico@feddit.uk 7 points 1 year ago

That's a rock fact

[-] calypsopub@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I disagree with the conclusion. My experience is anecdotal, of course, but I'll share. I'm a gamer female with a husband and grown son. Husband is gone now, but the three of us gamed quite extensively together and separately for years, playing various MMORPGs and MOBAs, among other things. My son is exceptionally good at gaming, I am mediocre and consider myself a proud "filthy casual," and my husband was absolute dogshit - to the point I had to leave my chair and go help him by taking over the controls to get him past certain difficult hurdles (and my son does the same for me on occasion).

My husband's ego was never threatened by this. He never took his frustration out on me. Why? Because he was a decent person who was confident in his masculinity.

In the end, lack of skill does not cause misogyny. I believe misogyny springs from the same source as the lack of skill: a tiny brain.

[-] adeoxymus@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Not saying I agree or disagree with the author. However you being his wife did not result in "female-initiated disruption of a male hierarchy" (their words) so it's not really an argument against their hypothesis.

(Of course your husband being nice and not a dickhead probably also plays a role)

[-] uis@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

TLDR: correlation != causattion

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this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2023
1418 points (98.8% liked)

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