28
top 29 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Probably, especially because intelligent creatures can gesture to something, make the sound it is, and convey thats what we call it.

[-] wetferret@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I remember reading a sci fi novel a long time ago where mankind encountered a spider-like intelligent lifeform with an unusual method of communication. Wrapped around the creature's head is some type of organ which displays changing bands of light forming a kind of language. Instead of telling someone something they can show them instead.

I wish I knew the book and author. I feel like it could have been in either Clarke's Rama series or Varley's Gaea trilogy.

[-] dontpanic@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 10 months ago

Rama definitely had octospider robot creatures that communicated with patterns of light on their skin, kind of like cephalopods iirc, but the 90’s were a while ago and I can’t remember many details. Wasn’t Dr. Blue a spiderbot with a ‘speech impediment’ where he could only display blue, or something like that?

[-] wetferret@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

You remember it better than I do!

[-] ZycroNeXuS@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 10 months ago

That was Rama, yeah.

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I was just listening to this podcast and the woman being interviewed, Sylvia Earle, said that according to Edith Widder, a bioluminescence specialists, light signals are the most common type of communication on the planet due to all the animals using it in the ocean. I would have never guessed that.

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Reminds me of the cuttlefish robot that was able to go back and forth tricking a real one into treating it like a male and female by changing its color patterns.

https://lemmy.world/post/5989858

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 5 points 10 months ago

I find it frustrating that we don't give animals more focus in this whole discussion. Like, I get it, aliens are cool, if we ever find some, and we want to be broadcasting to those potential aliens. But it kind of feels like a bad joke when we can't even properly communicate with creatures living right in our houses.

[-] Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

The barrier with animals is having an actual vocabulary. They can convey their current demeanor - like it's generally not hard to tell the difference between a dog wanting cuddles vs wanting to rip your face off. Some of them can even get a little more advanced with things like ringing a bell to tell you that want to be let outside, or bringing you an empty food bowl to tell you they're hungry, but that's kinda it. They don't have a specific bark-word for "Food bowl" or w/e for us to be able to translate.

Couple of exceptions though:

Some of the smarter breeds of parrots can develop a limited working vocabulary. You might be interested in Dr. Irene Pepperberg, a researcher who did a lot of work with parrots. It's pretty well established that you can train a parrot to say "green!" when you point to something green, but Irene wanted to show whether they actually understand that that color IS green, or if they just know they can a treat for saying "green" when their owner points at something that happens to be green. And it's the former - she was able to show they actually understand the concept of color + words that represent specific colors.

I think similar work has been done with apes by teaching them some sign language.

But even with the couple examples of animals being able to learn an actual vocabulary, you still wouldn't be able to have any kind of conversation with them outside of those super basic exchange like "What color?" "Green!" "Good boy!" *treat*.

So back to aliens - specifically aliens capable of space travel - it's a pretty safe assumption that they'd have some kind of language as advanced as our own, if not moreso. The societal development that would need to happen before them achieving space travel would absolutely require language.

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 3 points 10 months ago

Sure, but I do think, there's quite a number of animals with some form of vocabulary, like songbirds, whales, dolphins. To some degree, we do understand these, but there's still huge amounts of vocabulary we haven't deciphered, nor can actually respond to/with.

And even if those are basic exchanges, I feel like we could learn a ton about the different forms of communications and where our limitations are. Like, ants communicate with pheromones and bees with dances. Ultimately, we'd likely still send out EM-waves, simply because they travel quite well through space, but maybe a bee/alien would think our attempt at an obvious encoding is just background noise.

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

There may be more people working on it than you realize. The International Bioacpustics Conference (IBAC 2023) just ended a couple days ago. It was my first time attending, and I was blown away by how many people are tackling this exact issue from such a wide range of angles. The potential breakthroughs that may be just around the corner thanks to machine learning is what inspired me to start this community. I am constantly amazed by the things that have already been discovered in this field.

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 3 points 10 months ago

Yeah, I guess, I was also specifically complaining that they're not put into the limelight as much, so that folks from outside the field (like me) hear much about it. It always feels like I have to actively research to know what state-of-the-art is. Meanwhile, this news outlet is apparently doing an alien week.

I guess, I'm mostly just tired from how much limelight aliens are getting. But I also guess, broadcasting is basically the only useful thing we can do with potential aliens, so maybe this is the wrong tree to be barking up...

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Well, it is true, it certainly seems like hypothetical aliens are getting more attention than actual living creatures lately. I'm also hoping for a shift in this regard. Quite possibly it will happen with some cool machine learning powered breakthroughs.

[-] Deceptichum@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

Unless I’m mistaken, no other creatures on this planet have a language?

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago

This is actually what this community is about. And, so far as I can tell, it really depends on how you define language. Possibly the most decoded natural animal language so far is that of prairie dogs. They have managed to identify sounds that represent nouns, verbs, and adjectives. When you change the color of the shirt of an approaching person, a predictable unit of the prairie dog call changes. They have even found that they have unique sounds for abstract shapes like rectangle and circle, which is especially intriguing since these are the sorts of things that they wouldn't often come across in nature.

It is true, however, that prairie dogs are doing little more than just labeling. For the more advanced cognitive stuff we need to look at examples such as Koko the gorilla, while we were not able to decode much of a natural gorilla language, Koko did show that she was able to use English at the level of a small child. What she was capable of was way beyond simply labeling. For example, Koko used English sign language to blame a human assistant for breaking the sink in living quarters. She also was able to tell jokes and laugh about them, indicating that she understood what a sense of humor is.

We are probably still a long way from decoding the most advanced non-human communication systems on the planet. The ways that some dolphins combine uniquely identifiable syllables would put the most advanced human beatbocers to shame. While humans generally combine syllables one after the other, dolphins do this while simultaneously combining syllables on top of each other. They have demonstrated abilities as advanced as devising and coordinating a unique, non-rehearsed action between two dolphins after being asked to do so by a human. They both received the command from the human, went underwater, and then returned to perform an agreed upon action together, one which they had neither ever done before.

With advances in machine learning, we may just be very surprised by what we discover is being communicated between the other animals we share the planet with.

[-] DistractedDev@lemm.ee 3 points 10 months ago

Whales definitely do. They even have regional accents. It probably isn't as complex as ours, but we can't even understand that.

[-] Deceptichum@kbin.social 2 points 10 months ago

Whales make sounds and can “say” some things, but that’s not a language any more than my dog barking at me to feed him is.

Language is more complex than simply making sounds to identify things.

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 4 points 10 months ago

Right, but I'd say there's two aspects to language:

  1. Standardization. Different creatures need to agree on which sounds/symbols/etc. refer to what.
  2. Complexity. The ability to express arbitrary thoughts.

And well, I'd say if 1) is given, that aids us. A cat purring means that cat is content. We don't need to figure that out anew every time.

But 2) does not aid us. We should have an easier time understanding and responding to simpler thoughts than arbitrarily complex thoughts.
And yet, we're going straight for arbitrary complexity, while we still have barriers with simple communication, like not even being able to purr back at cats.

[-] Haggunenons@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

There is lots of evidence of animals doing more than making sounds to identify things. Alex, the African Grey parrot had some pretty advanced concepts, such as numbers and even 0. When not in the mood to work, Alex would just make up wrong answers to be left alone, and would show irritation towards other parrots that were not understanding concepts.

Dolphins have shown the ability to creaye, communicate about, and and coordinate tricks that neither of two dolphins had previously performed.

There was an elephant that knew where an animal hospital was despite having had never been, it had been around elephants that had been however, so the assumption is that the location and activities there had been communicated.

These are just a few examples, there are many more instances where animals have been observed doing more than just labeling things with sound. This is actually why this community exists.

[-] WindowsEnjoyer@sh.itjust.works -1 points 10 months ago

we don't give animals more focus in this whole discussion.

Sir, do you think dogs, cats, mouses, dolphins or whatever have a potential to invent such technology that would allow space travel? Or is your point that rat's IQ is basically the same as human's IQ?

[-] Knusper@feddit.de 4 points 10 months ago

No, my point is that we're struggling with simplistic communication with readily available creatures. Maybe we should practise more with those, before we try to communicate arbitrarily complex ideas with creatures no one has ever seen.

[-] circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 10 months ago

If the core system used were not significantly different than humans, then likely yes (even if our anatomy didn't allow us to speak to them, we could have a shared communication system).

The core system here is Saussure's idea of sign and signifier, ultimately. The medium doesn't matter nearly as much.

[-] 667@kbin.social 6 points 10 months ago

Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir does a great job at hypothesizing a first interaction like this.

[-] bloopernova@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago

Good lord I love that book.

I really like that he recognized that you'll have 2 beings both motivated to understand each other. The back and forth communication, along with some coding skills, made good progress pretty quick.

[-] 667@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

Did you do the paperback, or the audiobook? The audiobook was enhanced with some neat audio tricks for Rocky. It was a fabulous read.

[-] bloopernova@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago

Just the Kindle version, although now I want to make my wife listen to the audiobook version lol.

[-] 667@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

You’ll love it even the second time around. It’s a great production.

[-] Scrof@sopuli.xyz 1 points 10 months ago

I'd say if there's a will there's a way. Establish common points of reference and go from there, it probably wouldn't even be THAT hard is my guess.

[-] agressivelyPassive@feddit.de 2 points 10 months ago

Sure, concepts like dignity, time and hygge are super easy to translate once you can show that you know how hydrogen vibrates.

We don't even know, what form of communication aliens might use. What timeframe they live in, what concept of reality, space, time, objects.

this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
28 points (96.7% liked)

Digital Bioacoustics

594 readers
1 users here now

Welcome to c/DigitalBioacoustics, a unique niche in the vast universe of online forums and digital communities. At its core, bioacoustics is the study of sound in and from living organisms, an intriguing intersection of biology and acoustics. Digital bioacoustics, an extension of this field, involves using technology to capture, analyze, and interpret these biological sounds. This community is dedicated to exploring these fascinating aspects of nature through a digital lens.

As you delve into c/DigitalBioacoustics, you'll notice it's not just another technical forum. This space transcends the usual drone of server rooms or the monotonous tap-tap of keyboards. Here, members engage in a unique fusion of natural wonders and technological prowess. Imagine a world where the rustling of leaves, the chirping of birds, and the mysterious calls of nocturnal creatures meet the precision of digital recording and analysis.

Within this domain, we, the participants, become both observers and participants in an intricate dance. Our mission is to unravel the mysteries of nature's soundtrack, decoding the language of the wild through the lens of science. This journey is not just about data and graphs; it's about connecting with the primal rhythm of life itself.

As you venture deeper, the poetic essence of our community unfolds. Nature's raw concert, from the powerful songs of mating calls to the subtle whispers of predator and prey, creates a tapestry of sounds. We juxtapose these organic melodies with the mechanical beeps and buzzes of our equipment, a reminder of the constant interplay between the natural world and our quest to understand it.

Our community embodies the spirit of curious scientists and nature enthusiasts alike, all drawn to the mystery and majesty of the natural world. In this symphonic melding of science and nature, we discover not just answers, but also new questions and a deeper appreciation for the complex beauty of our planet.

c/DigitalBioacoustics is more than a mere digital gathering place. It's a living, breathing symphony of stories, each note a discovery, each pause a moment of reflection. Here, we celebrate the intricate dance of nature and technology, the joy of discovery, and the enduring quest for understanding in a world filled with both harmony and dissonance.

For those brave enough to explore its depths, c/DigitalBioacoustics offers a journey like no other: a melding of science and art, a discovery of nature's secrets, and a celebration of the eternal dance between the wild and the wired.

Related communities:

https://lemmy.world/c/awwnverts
https://lemmy.world/c/bats
!biology@mander.xyz
https://lemmy.world/c/birding
https://lemmy.world/c/capybara
https://lemmy.world/c/jellyfish
https://lemmy.world/c/nature
!open_source_ecology@slrpnk.net
https://lemmy.world/c/opossums
https://lemmy.world/c/raccoons
https://lemmy.world/c/skunks
https://lemmy.world/c/whales

Please let me know if you know of any other related communities or any other links I should add.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS