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[-] kromem@lemmy.world 59 points 1 year ago

Textual reference:

It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to sin.

  • Luke 17:2

So not quite the interpretation of the sign.

[-] BrandoGil@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

I think it's actually a really good passage to show the Christian faith currently on display because of the next 2 verses

2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sistersins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

So it's a verse about mercy and forgiveness but this person took home -checks notes- waterboarding. Sounds legit.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Well, not really.

The part about being thrown into the sea is about the horror that awaits if you sin or lead into sin others, such that it's better to drown oneself than do that.

The part following is about the importance of interpersonal forgiveness, not divine forgiveness.

It's in line with Paul's shtick about not eating meat offered to idols - not because it's wrong - but because if someone else thinks it's wrong and then they do it, you'll have led them into perceived sin.

Taken together, those lines exemplify the most fucked up aspects of canonical Christianity.

  • If you do bad things you face horrific divine punishment
  • But you must forgive others who do you wrong

This was part of how the church was able to manipulate and abuse their followers for thousands of years.

'Forgiveness' as outlined in that passage has been almost certainly directly cited by the church to silence pedophile victims of its members.

The version of Christianity that passed the survivorship filter of the Roman empire is the one that enabled slavery, servitude, and the oppression of the most vulnerable, and used pleasant sounding terms like 'forgiveness' to do it.

[-] DEngineer@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

And with the context around it, makes even less sense.

Luke 17: 1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Why does that feel like a non sequitur? The whole thing seems to be about forgiving an asshole for being a dick seven times a day as long as he says sorry (especially since being a dick is a given), but where does the little ones even come in?

Kind of bad advice, either way.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

It's because this is coming from Mark 9:42, where in Mark 9:36-37 he takes a small child and says whoever welcomes the child welcomes him.

Which follows Mark 9:35 where in answer to "who is the greatest apostle" he replies the one who becomes "servant to all" almost verbatim from 1 Cor 9:19 where Paul described himself as a slave to all.

Paul was only a small child at the time Jesus was doing his thing, and described himself as the last apostle as well as being slave to all.

So the passage was about backdating the legitimacy for Paul's being welcomed as "slave to all" and the "last of all" who was one such child being welcomed in his name.

This passage then connected the presence of this hypothetical child to the sayings about better to die/cut off hand/etc than sin. That original part with the child is located elsewhere in Luke 9:46-48, separated from this other part here, so in Luke it is literally missing its context.

(The only thing I still really miss from Reddit is /r/AcademicBiblical...)

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Ah, that makes sense. I mean, at least more sense at least. Thanks for the context!

I probably won't ever get around to reading those old books (which as an atheist makes sense, although I always find it funny athiests know the Bible more than religious people do lol).

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I was just angry about this the other day while I was driving home and listening to the Data over Dogma podcast (theist but very open minded Bible scholar chats with an atheist about the history of the bible) I am getting kinda annoyed at this lifestyle.

Maybe I just don't want to believe in sky-daddy. Is that so much to ask? Maybe I don't want to have a pile of books on Bible text analysis and spend my free time studying that fuck awful book anymore. Maybe I don't want to try to be an expert on philosophy, logic, evolutionary biology, Big Bang cosmology, what random really means in QM theory, Pali Canon, the Vedas, the Korean, and human+animal psychology.

I feel like every time I am on some site or talking to someone about this subject like I have to dwarf their knowledge on every single avenue of attack when the burden of proof shouldn't be on me. It is their fucking claim, fucking defend it!

[-] taiyang@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Oh, I heard about that podcast-- I think a host was a guest on Scathing Athiest.

What I learned from dating a preachers daughter a long time ago is that at least all that prep in evolution, psychology, etc, made me a much better, more knowledge person (which helped a lot in going to college, grad school, etc). I appreciate that aspect, even if it sucked at the time and involved a lot of heated debate and temporary blocked AIM accounts.

A good push for a bad reason, especially since they inevitably could not see reason. Some people aren't worth the effort, but I would hate to have to put on that fight for family members or other loved ones.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I miss that sub as well. I wish they had a once a week open mic kinda deal.

Chatgpt works wonders for this btw. I noticed something in Mark I didn't get a few months ago. No one responded to my question in that sub but chatgpt was there ready to engage. It is loaded with biblical scholarship and can even do a bit of speculation.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

ChatGPT is very susceptible to poor source selection when it comes to biblical scholarship because of the preponderance of apologetics online, just be aware.

And I have been copying the open discussion threads into !AcademicBiblical@lemmy.world (created by one of the mods from the sub) in the hopes that there's eventually a bit of activity over there in turn. Feel free to repost the question in one of those and given the relative silence so far, it might stand out a bit more in terms of getting an answer?

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah I appreciate the warning and I have noticed it has a slant. Still for nitty gritty stuff it is amazing. Mark for example is a fairly terse. So I had it do a unique word count on it and compared it to unique word counts in other Greek Documents and confirmed it. That would have been a fairly painful project only a few months ago.

I took your advice and posted. https://lemmy.world/post/2354097 I guess I have Mark on my mind today. Haha

True. Though "repent" doesn't just mean saying sorry.

[-] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I think Mathew's interpretation of events to be kind of more straightforward....

Mathew 18:6
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Both Matthew and Luke are pulling it from Mark 9.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It's because it's coming from Mark 9 where there's a kid, but it was split up in Luke to the kid being in Luke 9 and the saying here in Luke 17.

[-] DauntingFlamingo@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

There's also 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

So these women are in direct violation of the New Testament. Women cannot teach men, per GOD. If you're gonna tell me God himself is wrong in his own handwriting, I have a bridge to sell you. /s

Disclaimer: I am a dirty, happy atheist.

[-] kromem@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Which itself has a very interesting backstory, as around 80% of academics recognize 1 Timothy as a second century forgery, and around half think the part in 1 Cor about women teaching is a later interpolation.

There was a sect of early Christianity which was my main research interest who claimed their sect came from a woman teacher. This group had a fair bit of overlap with the things Paul rejects in Corinth, who he says "recieved a different gospel/version of Jesus."

In the late first century, Corinth deposes the elders sent by the Roman church and the bishop of Rome writes them another letter (1 Clement) where he repeatedly emphasizes that youth should defer to their elders and that women should obey their husbands and be silent.

So you probably had a competing sect of early Christianity with an emphasis on youth and women (as this later 'heretical' sect did) which was causing trouble for the group who had better financing and institutional support, which later forges and possibly alters letters to denounce their competition by attacking their practices, one of which happened to be empowered women.

And then we got two millennia of misogyny that persists until today.

It's a real shame too. That other later sect is the only religious group in Western antiquity I'm familiar with that was centrally incorporating Greek atomism, which was the context in which they interpreted the mustard seed and sower parables - likely coming from Lucretius using the term for 'seed' in place of atomos in his widely celebrated poem on naturalism 50 years before Jesus was born, where he even described failed biological reproduction as "seed falling by the wayside of the path". (The sower parable is much more interesting with this perspective in mind, and might explain why in Mark it's the only one given a secret explanation in private which clumsily interpolates the scene where it takes place.)

While Christianity became unambiguously misogynistic, it's doubted whether or not this sentiment actually reflects the historical Paul and the early churches he moved amongst. Faced with having to choose which of his writings are more genuine: the inclusive writings or heavily patriarchal writings, it really does seem his more radical opinions were watered down by the later church which caved in to the pressure of the existing misogyny.

Paul regarded that men and women had equal access to Christ's grace (Gal 3:28) within a discourse in which he explains the point of law is a temporary restraint to limit sin but ultimately it ought to fall away. He names and thanks dozens of women in helping to run and support the house church networks. He names "Junia" as the only names female apostle (Romans 16:7). Calls others "co workers" and "fellow servants" in the gospel.

It all falls in line with the traditions that are least likely to have been invented given the prevailing sentiment : that women were the financial support of Christ's ministry (Luke 8:3), the first portrayed as gathering others to Christ (John 4:27-30), the first witnesses of the resurrection, the first commissioned by Christ to the take the news to others etc

[-] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 year ago

How is Jesus on war profiteers, drug lobbyists pressuring doctors to overprescribe fentanyl and industralists who dump enough PFOA in the water supply to cause a noticeable increase of cancer rates?

The way we know scripture is human-sourced is because sins are about how people have sex rather than how people cause death, cost, destruction and disease affecting people by the millions.

Even our fictional supervillains nor The Devil, Himself can compare to IRL capitalist plutocrats.

[-] III@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

God can compare, though. He is a villain to many.

[-] ZAX2717@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Th Galations one is also very loosely related to the sign.

[-] Xariphon@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I mean, I see how he got there from here, but holy shit is it a big leap.

[-] oSillyScope@sh.itjust.works 38 points 1 year ago

That woman has never had an orgasm.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

These people have never had most of what’s good in life. They’re like cigarette butts stepped on by life, and all they have left is the dopamine rush of believing their hate has the power of a god behind it. They work so hard to evoke anger that it’s easy to forget how utterly pitiful they are. But seriously, what kind of human waste spends a day this way? They’re engaged in a desperate exercise of pure fantasy, trying to convince themselves they have value. It’s sad as fuck.

[-] CrowAirbrush@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

And never will.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Which the Whabist Karen in the center or the you get one cosplaying as Amish to the left?

Maybe they should work on that problem together. If nothing else they would learn to chill out.

[-] thessnake03@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago
[-] vlad76@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 1 year ago
[-] TheFonz@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

ARE WE HOMOS??

Anyone carrying a sign that dumb has got to be illiterate

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Someone made it.

[-] CaptObvious@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Looks like somebody is overcompensating for coveting her neighbor’s ass.

[-] chemical_cutthroat@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

I'd like to add Luke 4:23 as well as John 8:7. I've looked, but I can't find the one that says it's ok for the clergy to sexually assault minors, but it's gotta be in there, right? Maybe it was on the stone tablet that Moses broke, and it didn't get CC'd onto the new ones? Or maybe Mary Magdelene scribed it from wine-drunk Jesus while he was hanging out with the homies in Galgotha?

[-] Repelle@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

As far as I’m concerned owning an iron chariot is the ultimate loophole, god is powerless against it. Maybe the clergy have figured out the same thing. https://biblehub.com/judges/1-19.htm

[-] Nepenthe@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

And the LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he could not drive out the inhabitants of the plain because they had chariots of iron.

But....but what the fuck happened to omnipotence?

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

It wasn't there yet. Don't think God with a capital G think your friendly neighborhood spiderman.

[-] whataboutshutup@discuss.online 2 points 1 year ago

Crown Victoria Interceptor wasn't a thing back them.

[-] III@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Crown Vics had iron-rimmed wheels. God has no chance.

[-] LEDZeppelin@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

I miss the religious fruitcakes community on that old site

[-] ilovesatan@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Pedophiles should be waterboarded though.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

They should be! One way to guarantee they won’t, though, is to wait for god to do it.

[-] HubertManne@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

If I was gay for every time someone said I was gay. I would be so gay.

[-] eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago

They're wrong, I'm actually very very bi.

[-] KuroJ@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

TIL I’m homo

[-] jerome@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago
[-] doggle@lemmy.world -4 points 1 year ago

Wow... So nearly all men are super homo then?

Kinda explains some stuff ngl

[-] sxan@midwest.social -4 points 1 year ago

I feel so sorry for those kids. What a hell to grow up in.

[-] VampyreOfNazareth@lemm.ee -5 points 1 year ago

Rather be homo than filled with cobwebs.

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this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
259 points (96.1% liked)

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