Truck driver who caused deadly Broncos crash loses latest bid to stay in Canada : canada

[-] jadero@lemmy.ca 47 points 11 months ago

My biggest problem with this whole thing is the legal framing of his actions.

If the bus had instead been a car with a single, middle-aged occupant, I think everything would have gone quite a bit differently.

If that single occupant had not been killed, but made a full recovery, it definitely would have gone a lot differently.

If it had been merely a cop observing the infraction, he would have escaped with just a ticket. At worst, I suppose he might have got a temporary license suspension.

I have difficulty accepting that the identical behaviour should have such radically different punishments just because pure chance leads to radically different outcomes.

Note that I'm not saying that someone who kills someone else should be getting off scott free, regardless of the behaviour that led to the death. But maybe there is room to increase the penalties when dangerous behaviours have little or no consequence as well as room to move on how we handle behaviours that rarely have devastating consequences. Let's face it, the vast majority of those who even deliberately blow through rural stop signs will never even get a ticket, let alone kill someone.

Personally, I don't see this person as a threat to our society, so I see no reason to deport him.

[-] villasv@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I have difficulty accepting that the identical behaviour should have such radically different punishments just because pure chance leads to radically different outcomes.

That's how the law works, no? The consequence of the action, despite having a random chance factor in it, is one of the factors that decides the application of the law. If you do something dangerous and you're lucky you didn't kill anyone, you're judged with different standards than if you did something dangerous and did kill someone.

In law theory afaik, the damage caused irrespective of intent is a factor on the penalty it warrants.

As for this person being seen as a danger to society and deserving of deportation... I don't disagree. We need better roads, better traffic regulations, better driving safety standards. Tossing someone out of the country because they're in the unlucky bunch of the day isn't helping anything, really.

And I say unlucky bunch of the day because we have more than 300 crashes per day in Canada (with at least 1 person injured).

[-] jadero@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

Yes, that is how the law works. I think, that within limits, that is how it should work. Where I have difficulty is in figuring out those limits.

For another example, Canada has gone many decades explicitly prohibiting consecutive sentencing. There seems to be some movement in at least softening that prohibition. I can see why that might be a good idea in some cases, but I don't want Canada to just go all-in on consecutive sentencing.

[-] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago

And that's just one of the flaws of our current system.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

Personally, I don’t see this person as a threat to our society, so I see no reason to deport him.

It is important to note that not all crimes are punished based on the potential threat to society, however, it is worth acknowledging that the sentence of 5 years before freedom is disproportionate to the 16 lives taken due to dangerous driving.

The families want him deported, just so they can move on with their lives. That should be a good enough reason for the rest of us to accept.

Let’s face it, the vast majority of those who even deliberately blow through rural stop signs will never even get a ticket, let alone kill someone.

I don't know about you, but even when I have my dog in the car, I drive with even more attention and defensively than when I'm alone. I can't even fathom the thought of being intentionally reckless while being solely responsible for the lives of a bus full of people.

[-] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 27 points 11 months ago

The families want him deported, just so they can move on with their lives.

Because it's better if he were sent back to india instead of being sent to Hay River? Chicoutimi ? Surrey?

What's the difference? He's an airplane ride away and he's potentially a tax-paying member of society.

Is it justice? It smells like vengeance.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 months ago

I can't speak for the families, so that's a question to ask them. All we can do is support what they need.

It may be better for the driver to leave the country anyway, as I'm sure his past won't escape him.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

I agree, the families should get the support they need, but therapy isn't free here. I can agree if this man lives in a small community, it would be easier for everyone if he left. But that's leaving the town, not the country. Oh, there's no law to require that? Unfortunate, but that's no excuse to abuse the law instead.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca -2 points 11 months ago

Unfortunate, but that’s no excuse to abuse the law instead.

Out of curiosity, are you against deporting THIS guy, or any criminal? I ask because Canada deports criminals on a regular basis, so I'm not sure what "abuse" of the law you're referring to.

Our criminal justice system has deportation at our disposal; the family of the victims asked for deportation so they could move on with their lives (their words, not mine); the defendant had the legal ability to bid for a stay, which he did several times, and denied the stay. If deported, he could also re-apply to come back.

It sounds like our justice system worked exactly as it was supposed to in this context, failing the fact that he only received five years for killing so many people.

Would the family have asked that he be deported if he was given a more appropriate sentence of 30+ years (2 years for careless driving causing bodily harm x the number of victims)? Probably not.

I'm not saying that deportation is the right answer here, as it's clear that this was a crime of negligence and not a premeditated one. But I will always be on the side of victims and their families, and this is what they want.

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

First and foremost, mob justice is rarely justice. Second, as the other poster noted, this has been a problematic intersection for over a decade. This guy was just the unlucky one to have a bunch of people die because of his bad judgement. Third, when is the last time someone was deported over a negligence conviction of any kind?

I get that the families of these victims never want to see him again, but it's a big country. Their desires can be met without deporting the guy.

I'm not against deporting criminals, but I believe they should present a danger to society. I'm pretty sure this guy is never going to do something like this again, if for no other reason than him not being allowed to drive professionally (and if he is still allowed to drive professionally, that's another, different failure of the system).

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

First and foremost, mob justice is rarely justice.

What mob justice are you referring to? This case went through the Canadian legal system.

Second, as the other poster noted, this has been a problematic intersection for over a decade. This guy was just the unlucky one to have a bunch of people die because of his bad judgement.

Bad judgment? He went through a stop with a semi, which is why he pleaded guilty to dangerous driving, which is not the same as bad judgment.

Unfortunately for all those involved, his actions directly led to the deaths of multiple people, ruining dozens of lives. These families will never get closure, so what they need is an important aspect of Justice. Again, you or I don't have to agree with it, but we do have to support them.

Third, when is the last time someone was deported over a negligence conviction of any kind?

You can be deported if you are sent to prison for at least six months.

So theft over $5000 could get someone deported.

Killing and hurting dozens seems to more than adequately satisfy this requirement.

I'm not willing to dive into the records to go over each case and circumstance, since I'm not here to "win" any internet debates, but hopefully that answered your question.

I get that the families of these victims never want to see him again, but it’s a big country. Their desires can be met without deporting the guy.

Again, I won't speak for the families.

If, after five years, they are still so broken that they feel deportation is still necessary, then who are we to challenge that? Maybe the thought of knowing that he's still here, benefiting from the fruits of this wonderful country, while their family will forever be shattered, is too much to overcome.

I’m not against deporting criminals, but I believe they should present a danger to society. I’m pretty sure this guy is never going to do something like this again, if for no other reason than him not being allowed to drive professionally (and if he is still allowed to drive professionally, that’s another, different failure of the system).

I do agree. Deportation could be worse than lifelong jail (in Canada) for some.

I guess this is why the importance of victim impact statements is a cornerstone of our justice system. The law tries to balance between proportional consequences and the feeling of justice for victims.

[-] rab@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago

I still blame the trucking company who gave him the keys.

[-] xc2215x@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Not too surprising. The accident was too much.

[-] Ulrich_the_Old@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

Scott Moe killed a person while driving drunk and has had zero penalties.

[-] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

I'm still pretty shocked that the guy is free on parole just five years after killing 16 people!

I can't imagine how traumatic that must be for those families, who are still grieving from their losses.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

How does everyone feel about Ali Ibrahim? Was it all worth it?

Edit: i guess folks dont wanna talk about it

[-] DerisionConsulting@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ali's a better driver than our Premier.

https://pressprogress.ca/saskatchewan-premier-scott-moe-failed-to-disclose-his-other-impaired-driving-arrest-an-alleged-hit-and-run/

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ali hit his own pretty little something and ran :(. Absolute joke he makes of us

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -30 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Such a tough case. He really should have never been allowed in unfortunately. There is blood on the hands of the elite who stand by grinning and uncharged. Damn shame

Edit: I've written at length about my empathy for his extremely fraught situation and I think he would be an amazing voice against unchecked mass immigration that fails to comport with other rules-based systems (like, say, oh I dunno, employment and traffic and transportation laws), insufficiently well-regulated, and where capitalism is allowed to run around amok. On the other hand, rules are probably racist and hateful cuz #reasons.

Also, how dangerous it is when racists (wear blackface) are allowed to gaslight everyone into thinking they are an appropriate voice and arbiter for all that is not racist, and conversely, the benchmark maker for all that is racist (like letting people be exploited and run around without the resources or policies or representation they need in place to have a chance at making a sustainable, safe, and prosperous life and living here).

But yeah, IAmVeryRacist/Hateful

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 34 points 11 months ago

This is a terrible assessment. As if no natural citizen is capable of running stop signs.

Gross

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -13 points 11 months ago

They've been talking about this intersection or whateverfor 10 years. Somehow, everyone else avoided it.

I'm stating a simple fact that were it not for his entire context, this would not have happened (yet). An overworked, likely overfatigued, undertrained, exploited immigrant who doesn't actually comport with skilled immigration (which has a valid basis) is a recipe for disaster and even without any such danger, is still morally indefensible. Try to stick to what I say, lets avoid the rhetoric and have a grownup discussion about this.

Really getting tired of the invective and mock-outrage

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 19 points 11 months ago

This accident was not caused directly or indirectly by immigration. Stating it as such is flat out racism.

Overworked? Yep. Terrible tragedy? Definitely.

Ya know this accident would never have occurred if white people didn't invade canada

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I agree, There should have been a better policy. Your example PERFECTLY illustrates my point (to the extent it was a decision or lack of the Aboriginal folks not resolving to ensure we never took root) despite the fact I think its a shame it has to be like that and also Canada is basically impossible to totally regulate in terms of unauthorized access.

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 6 points 11 months ago

so you agree that white people caused this accident, thanks for clearing that up!

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

agree that white people cause this accident

Indirectly, people who influenced the system to be so loose and unsupervised as well as dangerously over-empowered "business owners" who lobby for continual erosion of safeguards and commonsense policy.

I have a feeling the actual perpetrators ("policy"-makers, enforcers, corporate beneficiaries) come in all colors although I'm almost certain his direct employer/company was sufficiently diverse. Which makes sense because those who make their way thru the system can learn how to turn it on its head and unduly influence it

They've been very quiet, huh? His company...

[-] girlfreddy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 11 months ago

Name checks out.

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 0 points 11 months ago

i was being sarcastic agreeing with the person i was replying to, because they are a piece of shit..

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You guys are having great difficulty sticking to the facts, the most I'm seeing are personal attacks cuz you're running out of rebuttals or substantive points to return in-kind. Its really sad and uninteresting. Take careof yourselves if you actually do experience human needsand impulses

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Absolutely! White people (particularly Laurentian "élite" are absolutley responsible for the lack of a credible and well-regulated immigration system that enabled every rung on the ladder of this entire situation. Its social murder, they should all be individually and systemically punished

Edit: nice 👎

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 2 points 11 months ago

you are a piece of shit

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Edit: you're seriously gonna argue the two are not indirectly-related. There is no hope here

What allowed or compelled those conditions? You don't think his "bosses" ever threatened him with deportation if he didn't bend the rules/reg one more time?

So if he had never arrived here, you think those kids were marked by the universe for some insane fate that is conserved and was meant to be?

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 3 points 11 months ago

i think that any accident that happens is an accident, regardless of the source of the human beings. jesus christ how can people be this hateful.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I don't hate him. How can you say I hate him when I empathize with his case immensly (hence the difficult case. Him and his wife's new life is being destroyed and I think he's a lot more decent than many Canadians).

I also wanted and advocated for letting him stay, not sure if it was on this platform but I'm between several Reddit-type formats

Why do you make these statements without actually engaging substantively?

Why are you so willing to use racism/hate as a proxy to let his deadbeat employers (who were objecively exploiting the immigration system for frwsh meat and cheap unregulated labor) completely off the hook, and any politicians or officials they likely bribed at some point)

[-] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 5 points 11 months ago

i am all for blaming the human that overworked this other human, and know damn well youre the recist fuck blaming a terrible tragedy on immigration.

if you want to go after business owners, awesome. but why the word 'immigration' is used here in any capacity shows you seem to have a different motive than holding business owners accountable for being pieces of shit to humans.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Ok

Edit: also, how do you think the fucks doing this (his bosses) get to pull this shit at all? Loose Immigration system that as always is in favor of the big employers

A regular citizen employee (economics permitting which is its own huge problem that everyone's ok with) can just report the bullshit and hopefully be protected+ rewarded maybe.

A person in his delicate immigration situation is beyond exploitable to the point of horrors like this predictably and naturally unfolding as has been the case here and, on the unemployable side, Ali Ibrahim

[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 9 points 11 months ago

If this intersection has been talked about for over a decade, it sounds like a lot of people got lucky and one person got unlucky, causing the deaths of a bunch of people.

There was a notorious corner near where I live. A family friend was going to work and taking his kids to school, as well as another kid, I believe. He and most or all of the people got hit by a truck and died. 4 or 5 people, obviously devastating for the families. Also not the first accident at that corner, major or minor. (This is a major intersection, thousands of vehicles a day, so even infrequent events happen a lot.)Sure, I could get angry at the truck driver. Alternatively, I could get frustrated with the local government for leaving an obviously dangerous intersection unchanged. It's finally getting altered, presumably to make it safer.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

There's lots about the situation that need to be evaluated because many things went wrong that day that in aggregate allowed this outcome. There are powerful business interests, there is negligence in local governance, federal government failure in not ensuring working immigrants are not able to be exploited, etc.

The list goes on, it just frustrates me when people scream "racism" and try to shut down any intelligent + nuanced discussion of the tough facts inherent to the case.

[-] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

The list goes on, it just frustrates me when people scream "racism" and try to shut down any intelligent + nuanced discussion of the tough facts inherent to the case.

That probably happened because you're the one who brought his race into it and then failed to show how that is relevant.

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -21 points 11 months ago

You're not incorrect about that in a sense, but I've yet to hear of one so catastrophic. What about Ali Ibrahim, you're gonna tell me as if a natural citizen is incapable of raping and murdering a little girl in a "strange land"? You saying these things would happen regardless so just open the floodgates even more, CenturyInitiative style?

There's clearly nothing for us to discuss lol

[-] Greg@lemmy.ca 16 points 11 months ago

The data does not support the argument that an increase in immigration leads to an increases crime. As a side note, I'm an immigrant and I come to a complete stop at stop signs and drive the speed limit. None of my Canadian born friends do 😅

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world -7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

We'll come back to that per my energy to deal with it but lwts talk Ali Ibrahim for a moment if you'll indulge me. Bit harder to argue against ;)

Edit: also, just because the data says one thing DOES NOT in any sense preclude the existence of severe outlier data points (anecdata)...its pretty real for the family, court staff, and the medical examiner who suicided herself post-cross-examination/case-in-chief. Is it getting real enough or has McGill published a counter-arguement that can prove none of that stuff happened either?

Edit: most people are terrible about rolling stops, its insane

[-] Greg@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

most people are terrible about rolling stops, its insane

The stop signs seem more like a polite suggestion here 🤣 And why don't they just increase the speed limit to 120 already.

just because the data says one thing DOES NOT in any sense preclude the existence of severe outlier data points

That's why we should rely on the data, decisions shouldn't be based on anecdotal outliers. No one is excusing the horrific acts of Ali Ibrahim or any other immigrant. It's just that their immigrant status doesn't have a causal relationship with crime so immigration status is irrelevant. We all want to reduce violent crime in Canada so lets focus on identifying real causal relationships so that we can support at risk individuals.

[-] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 0 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Why wasn't he required to have a surety/translator? If I'm wearing my empathy hat for a moment: He needed a guide anyway because he was unable to read and write, you cannot have someone like that wandering without support. He should not have been allowed to be running around unsupported or unsupervised. How are you going to argue with that?

You agree someone like that should be allowed to be out on the prowl?

Edit: re:rolling stops, its annoying how easy it is and nobody does it lol. I have to drill it in my brain cuz theyll totally ticket you for it

[-] Greg@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago

Why wasn’t he required to have a surety/translator?

That's a valid question no matter where they were born. I'm not arguing that there were no failings in this case, I'm arguing that those failings are not related to the original citizenship of this individual.

As I said earlier

We all want to reduce violent crime in Canada so lets focus on identifying real causal relationships so that we can support at risk individuals.

Let's identify at risk individuals (both possible victims and possible attackers) instead of scapegoating non casual and even non correlated attributes of individuals who commit violent acts.

re: traffic laws in Canada. From my experience, it depends where you are in Canada (and what number plates you have). Driving the speed limit on Toronto highways is dangerous but going 10 over with Ontario plates in Quebec can get you a ticket 😅 There are lots of unwritten road rules here, it was difficult to learn as an immigrant. Especially coming from a country littered with speed cameras where 7km over will get you fined hundreds of dollars. And don't get me wrong, I think Canadian drivers are generally really good, it's just the laws don't align with the reality which can be confusing.

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