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submitted 11 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world

An attorney for Ruby Freeman and her daughter, Wandrea “Shaye” Moss, had urged the eight-person jury to “send a message” with its verdict.

Rudy Giuliani should pay a pair of Georgia election workers he repeatedly and falsely accused of fraud $148 million in damages, a federal jury said Friday.

The eight-person jury awarded Ruby Freeman and her daughter, Wandrea “Shaye” Moss, the sum after a four-day trial, during which they testified that Giuliani’s lies in support of former President Donald Trump’s bogus stolen-election claims subjected them to a torrent of racist and violent threats and turned their lives upside down.

Freeman testified Wednesday that she was terrorized by Trump supporters and forced to move from her home because of Giuliani’s smears. “I was scared to come home at dark, you know,” a visibly emotional Freeman said on the witness stand. “I was just scared, I knew I had to move.”

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[-] Got_Bent@lemmy.world 142 points 11 months ago

Has Alex Jones paid out a penny yet?

Will Rudy?

These guys seem to be able to ignore these judgements with impunity.

I am shocked that his attorney acknowledged wrongdoing. That'll fuck any appeal attempts.

[-] Hegar@kbin.social 46 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Rudy probably can't pay that anyway, he's been in a bad way financially for a while now.

[-] Evilcoleslaw@lemmy.world 73 points 11 months ago

Rudy took a private plane to turn himself in in Georgia this summer. An article I read mentioned he has an apartment in Manhattan listed on the market for $6.1M. Now, I doubt he's got $148M, but he's not dead fucking broke like he's trying to claim. At least not yet.

[-] just_change_it@lemmy.world 45 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

No you misunderstand, his nonprofit foundation was selling his manhattan apartment for 6.1m. He controls the foundation but that money can't be taken away.

I haven't actually looked it up to see if he even owned the apartment he lived in, but there are many ways to shelter controlled assets in ways that minimize liability and tax burdens on the person who controls them. These mechanisms are a big part of the reason why rich people don't pay taxes. Instead they donate their earnings or claim losses on stock transactions.

If you donate a million dollars of your assets to your foundation while simultaneously earning a million dollars in cash from business dealings- how much tax do you pay? $0. Million in pocket, million dollar asset sheltered and still in your control. Your foundation control can be passed from generation to generation...

Keep in mind his foundation can "employ" him and provide lodgings to him and other reasonable expenses (e.g. food, travel, lodging... you know... the things we all toil away to earn money and pay 30%+ taxes for.)

[-] jopepa@lemmy.world 30 points 11 months ago

I hear about bad faith charities and foundations all of the time. It’s insane that this is just accepted and unchallenged.

[-] irreticent@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Lawmakers aren't going to close that loophole because they all do it themselves.

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[-] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Drain the swamp, man! Drain the Swamp Man!

[-] WashedOver@lemmy.ca 18 points 11 months ago

You would have to wonder if he was a just a regular Joe blow fellow if he would be in jail in till he could pay?

[-] plz1@lemmy.world 20 points 11 months ago

Debtors prisons are not something society should go back to. IIRC, this is a civil case, so, no jail. He should be in jail, but that isn't in the cards until he's convicted criminally.

[-] yesman@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If the money you owe is child support, debtors prisons are a thing right now. Also, during the hearing where the judge decides to put you in jail, you've no right to an attorney.

Of course this is more expensive than just giving benefits to single mothers, and children gain no advantage by having fathers in jail, but cruelty is the point.

[-] Got_Bent@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

No. Genuinely poor people are what the legal world refers to as judgment proof. Best you can do is garnish wages, which I doubt Rudy has any. You can also put a lien on property, but if they don't have any, you get nothing.

[-] Maruki_Hurakami@lemm.ee 12 points 11 months ago

Alex filed for bankruptcy, so he hasn't paid anything yet. The families recently said they'd settle for 6% but I haven't seen anything since.

[-] Evilcoleslaw@lemmy.world 23 points 11 months ago

He filed for bankruptcy but last I heard the bankruptcy court found his judgement in the Sandy Hook case couldn't be discharged through bankruptcy. So he still owes. It'll just be a long drawn out affair to chase down his hidden assets.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

No Jones declared bankruptcy and Infowars is on the chopping block to get liquidated, after that they'll go back to court to seek liquidation of his personal assets, homes, cars, watches Etc.

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[-] sndmn@lemmy.ca 57 points 11 months ago

He'll have to squeeze a whole lot of crude oil from his head to cover that.

[-] QuantumSparkles@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago

I forgot about that whole Zorg moment he had on the podium

[-] tacosplease@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

That was during the four seasons landscaping press conference. LOL

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[-] shadearg@lemmy.world 48 points 11 months ago

Nine figures, baby. Suck it, Ghoul.

[-] ForestOrca@kbin.social 9 points 11 months ago

I'm sure #45 will gladly cover it for him, NOT. LoL

[-] orbitz@lemmy.ca 10 points 11 months ago

He doesn't like losers checks 45s court cases in recent years lol. For a guy that doesn't like losing, he's not President, least for now. I truly hope people come out to vote again like last time. Not my country but it'd be nice to have stability for democracy from the country with the strongest military.

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[-] perviouslyiner@lemm.ee 41 points 11 months ago

"After the verdict, Giuliani said he didn't testify because he was worried the judge would find him in contempt, and complained that he hadn't been allowed to enter evidence that his allegations were true, despite his not having turned over any such evidence before trial"

Just wow. Guess there's a difference between what you're willing to tell a reporter on the street and what you're willing to tell the judge in court?

[-] CosmicTurtle@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago

If I'm reading this correctly, Rudy had "evidence" but the court had ruled it inadmissible.

I mean, I have a document right now that says Rudy Giuliani is the zodiac killer. Signed by Jesus and everything.

Don't mean it will hold up in court where there are procedures.

It's the same in Trump's trial. He was barred from using his "buyer beware" clause as an argument because it doesn't hold legal water.

[-] ElBarto@sh.itjust.works 36 points 11 months ago

Someone should keep a running total of how much they all collectively will never pay.

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[-] DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de 36 points 11 months ago

He acknowledged in his closing argument that “my client has committed wrongful conduct against” the pair and had “harmed” them, but asked the jury to keep in mind the good Giuliani had done in his lifetime.

He told them the message he believed they should send is, “You should have been better, but you’re not as bad as the plaintiffs are making you out to be.”

This has to be the worst closing argument ever. This might work if say, a teacher commits a drink driving offense, or a crosswalk attendant steals some laundry detergent, but "think of all the good" that this sycophant did in his life is just going to inspire heavier penalties.

[-] AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

But look at it from the defense's perspective. He's guilty AF and there's no denying it. What play could that make other than to try a humanitarian appeal? It's pretty clearly not going to work, but as his defense council they have to try.

I hope they get to seize his houses and they move in right away.

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[-] JustZ@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It was the only argument Rudy could make. He refused to provide discovery as part of an overall litigation strategy to hide his assets and got sanctioned with an adverse finding on liability. The only thing to argue to the jury was the amount of damages.

[-] drolex@sopuli.xyz 23 points 11 months ago

Can somebody familiar with the US legal system explain how these massive damage verdicts work?

  • Are they proportional to the publicity of the offence, the wealth of the parties? I'm happy it happens to Giulani but it doesn't make much sense to me... It seems hugely excessive for this kind of offence
  • Does anybody actually expect anyone to pay that amount?
[-] Milk_Sheikh@lemm.ee 20 points 11 months ago

From the reporting I read, the huge cost is driven by the need for a ‘counter-messaging’ campaign to debunk the existing, repeated libel committed by Rudy. Given how his words were broadcast wide and often, the claimants will have to basically keep a PR team employed for several years until her name is restored or forgotten - which is very expensive.

There’s absolutely the usual pain and undue suffering award as well, but that’s not what ballooned this judgment

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[-] neanderthal@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

Juries have a LOT of discretion regarding damages in civil cases. The damages are what the 12 jurors say it is.

[-] kamenoko@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago

The actual damages is how much money would it reasonably take to undo the damage done to the wronged party.

Pain and Suffering is compensation for the distress the damage caused

Punitive damages are a way for the jury to punish the accused for the moral repugnancy of what they did

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[-] spider@lemmy.nz 22 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

for defaming two Georgia election workers

Ladies and gentlemen, "America's Mayor"

[-] dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 18 points 11 months ago

What is the impact of this? It seems like whenever a political person is hit with a huge fine in the US, they never pay a penny of it. And furthermore, it seems like they just live their life in luxury, untouched by the massive amount of money they owe.

I just don't understand. In other countries, I'd expect the criminal behind bars - especially if they won't pay. What kafkaesque bureaucratic shithole set of laws allow this?

[-] medicsofanarchy@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

That would be an interesting metric. "Republican deficit" - the sum of money owed by individual Republican agents (politicians and ex-politicians) through civil suits. Compare it to the "Democratic deficit" and see what kind of numbers we're talking.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

It's civil and against him personally, he'll be paying it or they'll be back in court seeking additional damages. Criminal law is different and yes oftentimes the government will accept a small percentage of what's actually owed usually 20%-ish.

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[-] PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Donny will surely cover this expense, right?

¯\(ツ)

[-] jballs@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago

Glad to see it. I'm curious as to what that means practically. Does the court have the ability to force him to pay or can he just drag his feet indefinitely?

[-] athos77@kbin.social 12 points 11 months ago

He'll probably appeal it, and he doesn't have the money anyway. Might move to Florida to protect his pension from being garnished.

[-] ripcord@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago

He still does apparently at least have millions in assets though. And that sweet pension.

[-] spider@lemmy.nz 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Might move to Florida to protect his pension

Maybe he can be roommates with O.J.

[-] Evilcoleslaw@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Ultimately the courts can force him to pay some of it if he has any real property or other assets or income. But that will likely require more work on the part of the plaintiffs here to collect. It'll probably only be a fraction of what is owed, and then part of that is attorneys fees.

[-] darvocet@infosec.pub 9 points 11 months ago
[-] eran_morad@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Suck on that, you bitchass trick!

[-] autotldr@lemmings.world 7 points 11 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


WASHINGTON — Rudy Giuliani should pay a pair of Georgia election workers he repeatedly and falsely accused of fraud $148 million in damages, a federal jury said Friday.

The eight-person jury awarded Ruby Freeman and her daughter, Wandrea “Shaye” Moss, the sum after a four-day trial, during which they testified that Giuliani’s lies in support of former President Donald Trump’s bogus stolen-election claims subjected them to a torrent of racist and violent threats and turned their lives upside down.

Their attorney, Michael Gottlieb, said in his closing argument that Giuliani had “no right to offer up defenseless civil servants up to a virtual mob in order to overturn an election.” He urged the jurors to “send a message” with their verdict.

In his opening statement, Giuliani attorney Joseph Sibley said a large verdict would be the “civil equivalent of the death penalty” for his client.

He acknowledged in his closing argument that “my client has committed wrongful conduct against” the pair and had “harmed” them, but asked the jury to keep in mind the good Giuliani had done in his lifetime.

U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell in August found Giuliani liable for defaming the pair after the defendant repeatedly snubbed court orders to turn over required evidence to Freeman and Moss.


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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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